A native of Cheboygan, MI, Mark Grisdale recalls his football coach, Irv Sigler, quietly and privately telling Grisdale he knew he was padding his work out sheet, and if he kept cutting corners the team would not be undefeated again the next year. The lessons stuck. Grisdale fell into education and soon discovered teaching, coaching, and leading were his passions. Ten years ago he started a new high school in Houston, and it’s now one of the state’s best. For info about the book or this podcast please visit our website: http://www.letthemleadbybacon.com http://www.johnubacon.com You can connect with John via these platforms: https://www.facebook.com/johnubacon https://twitter.com/Johnubacon
A native of Cheboygan, MI, Mark Grisdale recalls his football coach, Irv Sigler, quietly and privately telling Grisdale he knew he was padding his work out sheet, and if he kept cutting corners the team would not be undefeated again the next year. The lessons stuck. Grisdale fell into education and soon discovered teaching, coaching, and leading were his passions. Ten years ago he started a new high school in Houston, and it’s now one of the state’s best.
For info about the book or this podcast please visit our website:
http://www.letthemleadbybacon.com
You can connect with John via these platforms:
https://www.facebook.com/johnubacon
https://twitter.com/Johnubacon
LTL Mark Grisdale
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[00:00:00] John U Bacon: Welcome back to Let Them Lead a podcast about the risks and rewards of leading a day. I am John U Bacon, the author of Let Them Lead, unexpected Lessons and Leadership From America's Worst High School Hockey Team, and you loyal listeners.
[00:00:12] John U Bacon: I am not making that up. today of course, we're talking to Mark Gris, a new friend of mine, somebody I met through my work. We'll explain how we met, but he is the principal of Tompkins High School, celebrating their 10th year in Houston, Texas. We talk about leadership taking many forms. One of the most obvious forms to me is a principal of a major school.
[00:00:31] John U Bacon: A whole lot going on there at leadership at all. And a whole lot of delegation cuz you cannot lead 3000 students yourself. We know this, so let's dive into it. Mark, gimme your background here a little bit, and then how we met, of course. And what you are doing now.
[00:00:44] Mark Grisdale: Absolutely. John, it's my pleasure to be here with you today. I appreciate it very much. So I started growing up in northern Michigan. graduated from high school, went to Olivet College for a year, played football Then transferred to Central Michigan University. Graduated from there, decided to make a big move outta state to Texas.
[00:01:01] Mark Grisdale: Started teaching and coaching here in Texas and somehow just kind of found one job after another. Kind of found me Eventually ended up as a junior high principal for a year. And then, uh, for the last 14 years I've been a, a high school principal, course 10 here at Tompkins and four before that at Morton Ranch High School, also in the Katy Independent School District here in a suburb on the west side of Houston.
[00:01:25] Mark Grisdale: we're just Trying to adjust to all the way things are since 2020, like everybody else.
[00:01:31] John U Bacon: Which of course includes right covid and all that, which is, uh, no small thing for any school to take on naturally. But, uh, I'd say the Falcons, your Masco. Have done exceptionally well in many, many areas. We'll get to those shortly. Before we get to that, what attracted you to education? What attracted you to administration versus teaching?
[00:01:51] John U Bacon: I know you've taught and coached at a, at good levels and done very well, and also who are your mentors along the way? What'd you, what'd you pick up along the way?
[00:01:58] Mark Grisdale: I can talk a little bit about, why I got into education. My mother was a, a kindergarten teacher for many years. We lived in a little town called Shaboygan, Michigan, up on the northern Lower peninsula on, on the shores of Lake Huron. Yeah, on the shores of Lake Huron. And, uh, my father worked for Michigan Consolidated Gas Company, which you probably have heard of somewhere down the line.
[00:02:20] John U Bacon: known around here as Mishcon
[00:02:22] Mark Grisdale: Yep. And so I, I started off, deciding I was gonna be a, a business major. Didn't really know what that meant, but it sounded good. So, started off in that path about halfway through my. Spring semester of my sophomore year at Central Michigan, I realized that, math was really gonna be a struggle for me to get through all that.
[00:02:42] Mark Grisdale: And I decided what else did I like to do? And athletics had always been a very big part of my life. I had three brothers growing up, so it was constantly, Games of all sorts, whether it was basketball, football, whatever. And that had always been a big attraction to me and always had been a very big part of my life where I had a lot of successes early and decided I would go in that path and.
[00:03:03] Mark Grisdale: Honestly, what did I like to do? Like to read, watch movies and what could get me outta school quickest since I had to pay for it. decided I'd be a, an education major with a, a major in English and a, and I got a minor in sociology because I had a few credits in there anyway, went on and did my student teaching at Traverse City High School over, we have a mutual friend.
[00:03:23] Mark Grisdale: Patrick Roddy, he was my university supervisor from Central Michigan. And although I didn't really have a lot of conversations with Dr. Roddy, he did set me up with a, a very effective supervising teacher named Glen Bader at Traverse City High School. And if you want, we could talk about that later, about expectations and demands and, uh, really formed my formative years as a teacher, being a student teacher with him.
[00:03:48] Mark Grisdale: And then just one thing led to another. it just seemed to be a natural fit with some of the jobs I've had and so forth.
[00:03:54] John U Bacon: And ultimately I would argue your personality, uh, it sounds like you kind of fell into this career in some ways, but you are a very passionate leader. I've seen you work. It's been impressive to say the least. And on top of that, you are clearly committed to this line of work. In other words, at some point you could have gone back to business.
[00:04:10] John U Bacon: You could have done a lot of things. You can. Going to insurance and other ways to make a buck. There're probably easier ways, frankly, to make a dollar than, uh, being a principal of a 3000 person high school in Texas. Uh, I can think of almost anything would be easier on a given day. but you clearly feel like you belong where you are.
[00:04:26] John U Bacon: This, this fits for you and you feel passionate and driven to do what you're doing now.
[00:04:31] Mark Grisdale: Yeah, it was never my goal or intention when I started teaching was to be, become a principal. In fact, I went back and got my master's degree shortly after I graduated with an undergrad. Simply because some of the people in my life had said, you, if you're gonna make any money at all in education, which you're not, but if you're gonna make a little bit more of less, then uh, you need to get a master's degree.
[00:04:53] Mark Grisdale: So I said, I'll get it in administration. And then it was another 10 years before I did anything with that. And that just kind of fell into me when, my principal at the time said, I think you need to apply for this job as this registrar job, and then you need to apply for this associate principal job.
[00:05:10] Mark Grisdale: I wasn't really seeking those, but people kind of maybe saw something in me and directed me that way and, and it's just, seems like it's been a very natural fit for me and honestly, I don't feel like I've really worked in the 38 years that I've been in. Public education, people say, are you ready to get out?
[00:05:25] Mark Grisdale: And I said, the mo, the moment I stopped waking up at four 30 in the morning to work out, to be at school at 6 45 is probably when I need to get out. That day's. Not here yet. Still love it. Still a lot of energy in the hallways and, and all that. So, so that's kind of what led me here and.
[00:05:40] John U Bacon: By the way, four 30 in the morning. You don't watch a whole lot of late night tv, do you?
[00:05:44] Mark Grisdale: it helps to be on central standard time where Monday night football starts a little bit earlier, but, uh, that's
[00:05:50] Mark Grisdale: a great thing about
[00:05:51] Mark Grisdale: DVRs and stuff
[00:05:52] Mark Grisdale: like that,
[00:05:52] John U Bacon: There there's the measure right
[00:05:53] John U Bacon: There
[00:05:54] John U Bacon: well, to back it up a little bit, uh, Patrick Roddy, the. Mentor we have in common that he mentioned, uh, was my camp director at Camp Heta on Torch Lake in Michigan. And I've written about him at length. my eulogy for him, I believe it's one of our podcasts.
[00:06:08] John U Bacon: If it's not, it's going to be, uh, when he passed away at age 90 a few years ago. Uh, an amazing guy both at Camp Heta as well as at Central Michigan where he, uh, overs. Hundreds, if not thousands of student teachers over his long and, ER's career. And of course his brother was a, uh, hotshot scientist at nasa and he could have gone that direction.
[00:06:28] John U Bacon: He could have made more money elsewhere as well. And I said, by the way, even at camp, he could have made more money teaching summer school as his central Michigan colleagues were. And they asked him, why are you doing that at camp? It's a lot of work. It's not any real money. And he said, uh, how many 12 year old friends do you have?
[00:06:44] John U Bacon: And I thought, that's a pretty good answer. and at his funeral, of course, we all showed up. That's, that's how it works. So that's Patrick Roddy, but I wanna hear more about Glen Bader, uh, your mentor along the way, other mentors you've had along the way. What did you learn about this line of work that you.
[00:06:58] John U Bacon: It seems like you kind of stumbled into, but man, you are made for it now and you are now developing, of course a coaching tree, uh, accordingly. So there must have been some important people along the way that showed you how this kind of work gets
[00:07:10] Mark Grisdale: Yeah, well my, as my mother, as a kindergarten teacher, we were always in the schools. It was always a very big part of our life. And, uh, being from an, uh, an athletic family with my three brothers, my mom would always shoot us outside to go do something outside, go play outside shoe baskets, take your bike to the beach, whatever.
[00:07:26] Mark Grisdale: uh, he was important. I can talk about my high school football coach that Irv Siegler that had a tremendous impact on me, and we can talk about that at some point in this if you want
[00:07:36] Mark Grisdale: to.
[00:07:37] John U Bacon: Let's do it right now.
[00:07:38] Mark Grisdale: he had the uncanny ability to connect with all kinds of kids, whether they were kids that lived out in the country, city, kids, kids that had money, kids that Parents were farmers or dugout swamps or whatever it was, but had the ability to, motivate each kid in an individual way. And we were undefeated our junior year. didn't make the playoffs because of the time in Michigan was the point system classification point system. my older brother Mike. with me. He was a, tight end and I was a center defensive end, and and I was a snapper and he was a holder on on extra points. so we spent a lot of time snapping the ball in the backyard, whatever. but anyway, so, uh, coach Siegler was very, very demanding, very fair, and would.
[00:08:23] Mark Grisdale: Players as individuals and developed tremendous bonds with them. And I can remember one instance my junior year in high school off-season training in the springtime I was coming back from, a quad injury running track. not very well by the way. The 300 hurdles were, were a challenge for sure. he, uh, pulled me aside one day cuz we were supposed.
[00:08:45] Mark Grisdale: Taking notes on our, our workout cards, our different reps and weights and all that kind of stuff. And he said, Gris. And he did it quietly and off to the side. And he said, uh, I've been watching you and watching what you've been putting down on your card, and it's not accurate. And if we're gonna go nine and oh, next year, we can't cut any corners and you're cutting corners.
[00:09:09] Mark Grisdale: And that's, he didn't yell at me. He didn't call me out in front of everybody. I said, okay coach. from that on, I worked extremely hard at everything and we ended up being undefeated. I was lucky enough to get named to the Detroit Free Press, Allstate Football Team, class B that year.
[00:09:26] Mark Grisdale: Tremendous. I mean, it was great success for the whole team and. tremendous honor. And, and I think that was that conversation that did it. And, you know, he, he knew which guys to call out and in front and which to talk to quietly on the side and, and then be able to bring all those guys together.
[00:09:43] Mark Grisdale: And it was, uh, he was really a master at those sort of things. he, he'd had a tremendous influence on me in terms of personal accountability. Being self-disciplined and, and stuff like that. So he was, he was a great, great leader, great coach, great teacher, you name it. He was tremendous
[00:10:02] Mark Grisdale: influence on
[00:10:02] Mark Grisdale: my life.
[00:10:03] John U Bacon: Of course, I love that. This is Coach Siegler. This has to be about 40, 45 years ago. It sounds like
[00:10:08] Mark Grisdale: 19 78, 19 79.
[00:10:10] John U Bacon: 43 years ago, or CO 44 or so. and that conversation probably took 60, 90 seconds and that is imprinted on you to this day. Don't cut corners. Don't fudge the data. deal with it because your actions internally will affect how your whole organization. accountability is part of that mission as well.
[00:10:29] John U Bacon: So that's a lovely little piece of leadership right there. Uh, one of our podcasts, by all means, check it out. eLog g for Paul Halber, a hockey mentor. It's when he cut me, and it's about a two or three minute conversation from 1979, and it stayed with me to this day and. Paul and I stayed friends to the day he passed away about a year ago.
[00:10:48] John U Bacon: but it's amazing the impact you can have and how we now decades later carry this with us and think about how many times you've communicated that message from Coach Siegler to your teachers, your coaches, your students, your players. I mean, hundreds, thousands, gotta be in various ways. So that's the impact of course a good teacher or coach can have, uh, in your career.
[00:11:10] John U Bacon: Of course, as you climb the ranks, uh, even though you're not necessarily trying to climb the ranks. There's a lesson in that too, by the way, from one of my mentors, Bo Shin Beckler, the old Michigan football coach. He said, damn it, don't worry about your resume, and don't worry about the next job. Do your job.
[00:11:24] John U Bacon: Do this job. If you do this job well, they start finding you. And there's a lot to be said for that. Of course, if you're a head football coach in the Big 10, they do find you. They don't always find you if you're gonna be an assistant principal in Katy, Texas or Arbor, Michigan. but the advice is still pretty sound.
[00:11:38] John U Bacon: Do a good job where you are Now, if you're doing that right, then a lot of things open up. But you must have had some mentors along the way. Leaders you followed. You, uh, watched. name a
[00:11:47] John U Bacon: couple if you can.
[00:11:48] Mark Grisdale: the first principal that really took an interest in me was, uh, James McSwain. I was working at Lamar High School in, Houston, downtown Houston, Houston Independent School District. And he, uh, had the registrar's job, you know, in charge of transcripts and enrollment and stuff like, Which I was kind of talked into by a couple people said that would be a good fit for me.
[00:12:11] Mark Grisdale: And he seemed to find out that I, the more stuff he gave me, I could take care of and do. And it's, it's kind of like the old adage of. Competency gets punished and incompetency is rewarded. So he found out he could trust me and give me more stuff to do, and so he kept giving me more stuff to do. And so, that kind of morphed into, a position as the associate principal there at that school.
[00:12:36] Mark Grisdale: And he knew all kinds of people and, uh, introduced me to a bunch of, I guess you could say the movers and shakers and. Public school administration world in Texas and made some great friendships and worked with a gentleman named e Don Brown, who was, past president of the Texas Secondary School Principals Association.
[00:12:56] Mark Grisdale: The National Principals Association. We worked together for, for a couple years. when I was in, in h i in Houston. And, uh, was a great, person that kind. Help me define philosophies and values and what is your purpose and the purpose of the school and, basically how everything should be focused around.
[00:13:16] Mark Grisdale: And what's carried me through, I remember, is that it should be when you're building a master schedule, what teachers to put where or whatever, and hiring people, whatever is what is gonna be the overall outcome on student academic. That's how you should build your schedule. That's how you should define what you do in your school, how you should define what is good for kids.
[00:13:37] Mark Grisdale: And it's, you know, you need teachers and you need to keep them happy and you need to keep them motivated. But the bottom line is you have to make decisions that are right for students. and that was really a big, defining part of my early administrative.
[00:13:52] John U Bacon: That to me is fascinating. Cause I don't know a whole lot about how principals come up with schedules and who teaches what and whatnot. it's interesting how seriously he took this and how he knew that if you take care of the infrastructure, if you will, of that school, that will definitely feed down into his student achievement.
[00:14:07] John U Bacon: It's directly connected, that you don't just, you know, figure out the, the time schedule. This guy's free fifth hour, throw him there. it's far more thoughtful than that. that to me is fascinating in the book that we, that you. Connected us, let them lead. I took our schedule, our game schedule very seriously.
[00:14:22] John U Bacon: I had, blank schedules for the calendar and I tried 10 or 12, 15 different models before the thing finally clicked. I didn't want, uh, too hard games in a row. I didn't want too easy games in a row if I could avoid it. Uh, I wanna lighten up around final exams. I wanna lighten up around the holidays and I wanna build toward the playoffs.
[00:14:38] John U Bacon: So I did model after model after model. Our schedule. It didn't always get what I wanted, but it got most of it. And from that, I'm sure from our first year when I inherited a bad schedule right there, we saved three or four games just from that out of 25. And likewise, in our locker room, I would make, uh, xerox maps of our stalls and the defensive side, the forwards, the goalies, and so on, and figure out who sits where.
[00:15:02] John U Bacon: Again, a logic game where I didn't want two seniors ever sitting next to each other, so, Just gonna talk to each other. I didn't want two freshmen by themselves cause then they're ignored. and I had four compass points of my four best leaders. I would sit, those in the middle of each wall, of the locker room.
[00:15:16] John U Bacon: So in a minor way, I've come to believe infrastructure. Does affect behaviors and behaviors affect outcomes, and that's what you learned obviously from Eden Brown on a, on a much grander scale with 3000 students. So that's not a small trick there. Uh, you take over Tompkins High School, brand new high school, which is a, a rare treat in itself, but also a huge challenge cuz you have.
[00:15:37] John U Bacon: No traditions, you have nothing to fall back on. You have no reputation, good or bad or indifferent. it's a, you know, truly a tabula rossa, a blank slate. what would you start to think? You probably had a year to prep, I think for
[00:15:48] Mark Grisdale: Well, not really.
[00:15:49] John U Bacon: Tell us about Tomkins High School, how you started and, what you focused on. Uh, from Eden brah on down, what it was intent. The point is it was intentional. Your goal is not submit to get the lights on and teachers in, in rooms. You had a much bigger plan than
[00:16:05] Mark Grisdale: right. And, Mr. Brown had a tremendous influence in, in terms of. You know, how you interact with an administrative team and, and what are you guys gonna do as your philosophy or whatever. So it was a tremendous opportunity because I've been in a school where I've had to try to change a culture.
[00:16:22] Mark Grisdale: That was existing versus being able to take, like you say, a blank slate and create the culture that we want. As a, as a campus, as an organization, it's a heck of a lot easier to do that than to change people's perceptions and people's, their attitudes and their ways of doing things, And so basically I got the job in, was told in late October, early November. That I would start and, uh, on January 3rd or whatever it was, when we came back from
[00:16:51] Mark Grisdale: Christmas,
[00:16:52] Mark Grisdale: and
[00:16:53] John U Bacon: That's right. You, you guys started midterm,
[00:16:55] Mark Grisdale: The school opened in
[00:16:56] Mark Grisdale: August. yeah, so I started in, in January and, I had a great associate principal, Ryan live by that.
[00:17:03] Mark Grisdale: we just clicked, clicked together wonderfully and, and that. uh, a great combination for us, but we started and it sort of came out of, what do I want this school to be? And some conversations I had with people before and, and kind of thought with the community that we had that the expectation was this school was.
[00:17:23] Mark Grisdale: Anticipated to be one of the highest performing academic and extracurricular schools, not only in the school district, but in the state and beyond. And I've kind of used that and they make fun of me at faculty meetings and the staff makes fun of me. Oh, here he goes again with his, the school has the potential to be, or the, the highest performing, but it's kind of caught on and kind of been like our, battle cry that we are gonna be.
[00:17:44] Mark Grisdale: We will continue to be one of the highest performing academic and extracurricular schools in the district, the state and beyond. And I went to, early in the formation of the school, the associate principal and I went over to a, a neighboring junior high where we were gonna get some eighth graders.
[00:18:00] Mark Grisdale: We're gonna come over. And one of the eighth snarly, little eighth graders asked me when I talked about the school, do you guys have any questions about anything? And the kid goes, yeah, what's gonna make this school different from, from any other school that's around here? And as a teacher and a coach or whatever, you always, John, you know, in the classroom, what, you always have to have some kind of quick comeback, think on your feet quickly.
[00:18:25] Mark Grisdale: And I said, well, we're gonna be three things. Number one, we're gonna hire the best people that we can possibly find that are humorous, have great sense of humor, are optimistic, have energy, and like to be around teenagers. And number two, we're gonna find the best stuff we can for our students, whether it's band uniforms or weights, or.
[00:18:45] Mark Grisdale: You know, whatever it is, we're gonna get the best stuff that we can buy. Best equipment, best basketballs, whatever for our guys. Number three, we are gonna win at every single thing that we do. And so I've kind of modified that over the years of what is the definition of winning? And the definition of winning is that you win at everything.
[00:19:02] Mark Grisdale: You do all the little battles day in and day out. Like do you, are you getting to class on time? Did you study for your geometry test that. Did you pick up your trash in the lunchroom? Were you nice to people in the hallway? And some of the teachers and coaches and directors here have taken that and made their own sort of their own bar of, of what the, what winning means for them.
[00:19:23] Mark Grisdale: Like Coach McVay are head football coach has the crimson line and everything is gonna be at, this is the standard, the Crimson line is the standard, and everything that we do in athletics is gonna be at this level and we're not gonna accept anything. Then that sort of behavior or that sort of performance out of you.
[00:19:41] Mark Grisdale: And we never focused on winning games. Our one loss record, we focused on are we working hard? Are our behaviors, like you said in one of your things that you focus on the behaviors not on the results. And if you focus on the behaviors, the results will follow. And so we started, are you laying the foundation?
[00:19:59] Mark Grisdale: Are you doing all these little things correctly? And sure, some things aren't always gonna work out for you. Didn't always get every job I applied for whatever, you know, and that's just one of the lessons in life. But you're gonna win a lot more or you're gonna be a lot more successful doing when you have that attitude of, I'm gonna take care of all the little things.
[00:20:17] Mark Grisdale: And you talk to any coach or band director or choir director, and they're gonna say, it's all the tiny little things That add up to the great big things that make the big difference. I was in a band hall yesterday doing an observation on one of our assistant band directors, and they were working on holding this note with the woodwind section or whatever, and he said, you have to focus.
[00:20:38] Mark Grisdale: You have to focus on holding this note for X amount of time and concentrate on it and not think about anything else. And those little things like that that you can. Or get kids to do, I think, we'll, we will carry over into tremendous results. our school has proven that we've had great, sure, we have great talented kids that come from, you know, some of them come from families that have all the, I guess all the benefits that you could, you could want and others that struggle and, and all that.
[00:21:07] Mark Grisdale: But we have great teachers and great coaches and directors. Have really embodied all that. And we've tried to hire those kind of people that we say form in the, that fit the Falcon Factor that have those as their priorities. You know, and one of the questions I always asked in every interview at the end was, what are you gonna bring to Tompkins High School to make us the highest performing school in the district, the state and beyond?
[00:21:33] Mark Grisdale: And, you know, the, the people. It's one over the committee with that, with that kind of common, we're the kind of people that we have and we have a tremendous amount of those people here
[00:21:43] John U Bacon: I love that.
[00:21:44] John U Bacon: And one of my lines, as you know, my approach to recruiting is don't take 'em all. keep the bar high. You, you attract the right people and you keep the bar high and the Navy seals take 6%. They're not paying a whole lot. They're paying less than you get as a teacher and as a rule, 54,000 as the average pay.
[00:21:58] John U Bacon: How do they. How can they afford to be so picky? Cuz they raise the bar. They don't apologize for high standards. They celebrate those high standards. And corporations tell me, well, you can't get 'em all that way. Right? You don't want 'em all. You want the best, you want the, you want the Falcon factors you say, I also love how that has become a thing.
[00:22:15] John U Bacon: The Crimson line is a thing. Uh, the Falcon Factor is a thing. My captain Mike Henry's saying, you play for Huron, it's harder over. That's our thing. Strong and bold and green and gold are our colors, of course. And I know crimson and blue are yours. Um, so I've still got some great swag from your school, by the way.
[00:22:31] John U Bacon: So that was a fun little bonus. I wear it often, but to break it back down to this, it's funny how, uh, from a. Borderline smart allocate comment from an eighth grader years ago. You were forced to define yourself in about 10 seconds, and that ended up being essentially your mission statement for the school.
[00:22:51] John U Bacon: And that is we're gonna get the best people. And I love how you define that. They're gonna have a sense of humor, they're gonna be optimistic, they're gonna be energetic, they're gonna like teaching kids. We're gonna get the best stuff and we're gonna win at everything we do. And winning as defined by you guys, uh, you can't be a win at all cost program in terms of wins and losses as you pointed out.
[00:23:07] John U Bacon: Then you lose. As I point out, if you are a win it all cost program and you lose, you have nothing. And this past season, McVey, who's a hell of a coach, clearly, had to change quarterbacks two or three games into the season. I I track you guys naturally on Twitter and elsewhere. so you lost a couple games.
[00:23:24] John U Bacon: Does that mean the season's a bust? No. they re. We came back together behind a new quarterback, they pulled it all off. That to me is a heroic season and you've gotta define that yourselves, obviously. So all that is really cool. But I also love too, Now you made this culture up. I mean, you had a, you had a clear vision for what you wanted, and you could up the top of your head, spit it out for a, a snarky eighth grader.
[00:23:47] John U Bacon: And like you said, if you, if you him in high, you've already lost the floor. We both know that. I recall when I was getting my master's in education, one of our, we're about to teach for the first time the next day. All of us, 24 of us, um, student teach for the first time. And one of them asked, uh, well, what happens if a kid tells you to, you know, f.
[00:24:03] John U Bacon: And the guy professor thinks about that goes, well, it depends on the context. No, it doesn't. You, you got 0.5 seconds, pal. That's what you have. So, that, that long-winded, you know, PhD answer is not gonna work in a high school, um, or certainly with an eighth grader. So you define yourself according to those terms and all those things you talk about.
[00:24:23] John U Bacon: Best people, best stuff, we're gonna win. Everything we do as defined by you is all within your own control. And as you and I have talked. The key is to focus on behaviors and not results. The results will come. I care about results. You care about results. We monitor results. We celebrate victories.
[00:24:39] John U Bacon: Absolutely. And if things are getting outta hand, all right, we're doing something wrong. but day to day you don't worry about it that much. Focus on the behaviors. And over time it will come. And my latest example of that, mark, is I'm losing 20 pounds for the fifth time in my life. Why do I keep on doing this?
[00:24:52] John U Bacon: I need to get up at four 30 in the morning. Like you, if I look at the scale every day, I go nuts. All right? Because the scale some days rewards you and some days it doesn't and everybody's trying to lose weight knows this of course. So what am I doing? I cut out sugar. Am I working out?
[00:25:05] John U Bacon: Am I eating the right stuff? If I'm doing those things, then let's not worry about the scale day-to-day. Let's monitor it. Let's not worry about it. Focus on the behaviors and how you feel and that's what you've got going. Now let's go ahead and list, uh, and by the way, before we dive into the accomplishments, which I wanna dive into here shortly, and I've got my list here of your stuff, but you do as well.
[00:25:25] John U Bacon: Naturally. I wanna point out it's a public school. It's in Katy, Texas, outside of Houston, as you say. but as, as you've told me, it's 45% white, 30% Hispanic, often from Venezuela, 20% Asian and 10% just about everything else. you've got America under one roof. At Tompkins High, and I've been there and I can vouch for this, it is a very diverse high school, so when people see all your achievements, the temptation is to say, oh, that's a, frankly a rich white school I'll, uh, gross point south in Michigan and so on.
[00:25:53] John U Bacon: that's not what it is. It's, it's quite a mix and they are achieving at very, very high levels.
[00:25:58] Mark Grisdale: Yeah. It, it's been. Really interesting to see how, how you can take kids from all kinds of different backgrounds and cultures and bring 'em together as a group, whether it's in the choir hall or whatever. it's been, uh, one of the more rewarding things. I think you're right about that.
[00:26:15] John U Bacon: Well gimme a list of some of your accomplishments in extracurriculars. Of course, the arts, uh,
[00:26:21] John U Bacon: athletics, naturally academics.
[00:26:23] Mark Grisdale: academics. we've been one of the leading schools in the district in the terms of number of advanced placement tests given every year. we've had numerous National merit, semi-finalists, national Merit scholars, and uh, we do an excellent job of, you know, all the state accountability tables about meeting graduation cohorts and all that kind of stuff.
[00:26:45] Mark Grisdale: And, and that boils down to. The teacher's expectation in the classroom, and I try to hire people. That emulated what my student teacher wanted me to do. Mr. Bader, who was very hard on me, ripped me up one side and down the other every day that I presented a lesson. Tremendous learning experience. I hated it.
[00:27:07] Mark Grisdale: I hated almost every minute of it. You know, nobody likes to be criticized all the time, but it was like, did you see that kid back here? Or did you see what this kid did over here? Did you see, uh, why did you say things this way and not that way? that kind of set the foundation. Uh, all the things you have to do in the classroom, but in terms of accomplishments, uh, we have, we have in this, in the 10 years we've been open, we'll have graduated by the end of this year, over 7,000 kids from Tomkins High School.
[00:27:36] Mark Grisdale: And to think that you can make that kind of impact on kids it's really almost overwhelming to do that. But our kids have performed tremendously and we. Girls soccer team has played in the state championship game, twice. in the short time that we've been open. Boys basketball played one year in the 2018 in the state championship game.
[00:27:57] Mark Grisdale: we just, our girls volleyball team this past November, played made it all the way to the state final state championship game. Had a heartbreaking. In that game. Uh, and I say it must be me because in state championship games, I guess I'm O oh and six is the principal, but to be there is,
[00:28:14] Mark Grisdale: it's
[00:28:14] John U Bacon: but how can you not show
[00:28:16] Mark Grisdale: Oh, yeah, yeah, I know. Yeah. So we've done that. I mean, just numerous. We, we call 'em districts down here. I think in Michigan they're called conferences leagues or whatever. Uh, we've won numerous district championships. Our girls basketball team is a three time. In a row. District champs volleyball two times in a row.
[00:28:36] Mark Grisdale: Football's been averaging 10 wins a year for the last, four or five years or so.
[00:28:41] John U Bacon: Very hard in Texas. Of course, that is a football state. We
[00:28:44] John U Bacon: both know that. Uh,
[00:28:45] John U Bacon: we've also got, of course on the art side, you've got the number one orchestra, the number one choir, and I believe the ninth ranked band in the state of Texas. And I've heard the Texas.
[00:28:53] John U Bacon: Pretty big. So
[00:28:55] John U Bacon: not a bad list there. Of
[00:28:56] Mark Grisdale: what I think for sure the best orchestra director in the state. And, and the others have to be in the top two or three. we would've had it three years if it wasn't for Covid. we had in 2020, we were, gonna be, that all honor orchestra, they call it.
[00:29:10] Mark Grisdale: Uh, we had won it before then too. So this'll be his, technically his third. Being the, state champs, I guess in orchestra. And it's just been, I mean a bunch of kids just got named All State Choir, which is a lengthy process to make it through that selection process. And to me, all the programs are all.
[00:29:30] Mark Grisdale: Beneficial and important, and whether they're district champions or not, I think, you know, like the, the debate team and the sub varsity girls basketball team are just as important as the football team. And that's kind of the attitude that we've had and shared throughout, the campus that every single one of those kids we want.
[00:29:47] Mark Grisdale: those teams and those kids and those organizations to provide our students that the best possible positive experience. Not everything is always gonna be positive, but you can make positives out of whatever the event is. The event plus your reaction to it equals the outcome, I think is, is how that goes.
[00:30:03] Mark Grisdale: And teaching kids how to, fight through that. Because in the real world, we know. There's gonna be all kinds of stuff that you're gonna have to encounter, you won't always be the state champ. You won't always be, honor choir or whatever you have to encounter and keep fighting and grinding and, that's winning, that's winning at all those little things that you do.
[00:30:21] Mark Grisdale: So, no, the, the accomplishments that this school's had and the very, very short time has been, I, I don't know if any other schools been able to do it.
[00:30:29] John U Bacon: It's uh, a hell of a record, and of course, we're barely touching on academics. You've got the highest AP scores around this. 93% scored three or higher, 2,500 AP exams out of 3000 students. That's pretty incredible. So that of course has been the focal point of it all. I gotta ask you, two things.
[00:30:47] John U Bacon: One, how do you celebrate victories of various sorts at Tompkins? And two, how do you hire people to work at Tompkins?
[00:30:53] Mark Grisdale: Uh, celebrating the victories. We try to all the normal stuff we have with assemblies and rallies and, you know, the notifications and stuff like that. And
[00:31:03] Mark Grisdale: I try to,
[00:31:04] John U Bacon: But, but you do celebrate them, obviously.
[00:31:06] Mark Grisdale: oh yeah. I mean, even the little ones need, like, tell Coach McVay every, win is a, great win. You need to celebrate every.
[00:31:13] Mark Grisdale: And, uh, I've had, like my soccer coaches have taken a lot of your stuff and done with the ripping off. Every time you win a game, you take one off to go. That's one, that's two, that's three off the, off the whiteboard or whatever. And so just telling kids, this is what we've done to be successful, and then that's, that seems to have worked out very well.
[00:31:32] Mark Grisdale: And to credit the staff that are doing it, they're always finding new. To try to motivate kids and to reach kids and to connect with kids and to, like you say, put them in charge of as much stuff as you can So like when we hire people, obviously we start with do they possess the, the fac, the falcon factor, which is are they kid-centered?
[00:31:53] Mark Grisdale: And a lot of people, have a, have an issue with that, but are we gonna make decisions that are in the best interest of our students? And they won't always be popular with the kids. The decisions won't always be
[00:32:04] John U Bacon: Mm-hmm.
[00:32:04] Mark Grisdale: with them,
[00:32:05] John U Bacon: I think by necessity, if you are constantly popular with the kids, first of all, you're not going to be, because they can't be done in the junior high school and high school level. two of course is that you're, you're doing a disservice. Uh, it doesn't mean you need to be the meanest guy on the block by any means.
[00:32:19] John U Bacon: but like being a parent is certainly a very similar role to being a teacher. Uh, they can't like you every day if you're doing your job, and that's okay. You have to like them. but what did Harry Truman say about Washington, DC If you wanna be part, you know, if you want a friend in, uh, in DC get a cat, get a
[00:32:33] John U Bacon: dog.
[00:32:35] Mark Grisdale: Yeah. But then.
[00:32:36] Mark Grisdale: And
[00:32:37] John U Bacon: So sometimes it's gonna be
[00:32:38] Mark Grisdale: and sometimes it's gonna be lonely and, and when you're dealing with kids in their formative years, even up through seniors in high school, the communication is so critical and essential about why did you get this grade? Or why did you not get In this position or on this team or in this role.
[00:32:55] Mark Grisdale: And I think that it's, it's critical to have that kind of a relationship where you sit down with the kid and you say, this needs to improve. And that, and that's the kind of mentors I think they need. They don't necessarily always need somebody to tell 'em they have a really cool sweatshirt on or whatever.
[00:33:10] Mark Grisdale: That's important too, but I think it's also important that, that, that you have that kind of role with kids where you say, this is where you need to get. This is where we need you on this team. We need you to be able to do this and you have to work on this. And same thing
[00:33:24] Mark Grisdale: in the classroom.
[00:33:25] John U Bacon: Irv Siegler baby. That's Irv Siegler in your ear for 90 seconds. 43 years ago. It's still there, of course. So, uh, what is the hardest part about your job and what is the best part about your job?
[00:33:36] Mark Grisdale: Well, I would say that being a high school principal, most parts most days are really good, pretty good. But there's usually some part of every day that's not so. And, when you can't connect with people, can't connect with kids, can't connect with parents, it's very difficult. Uh, and you'll have all kinds, as a, a high school principal, you'll see everything.
[00:33:55] Mark Grisdale: I'd like to think that in the 15 years I've been a high school principal, that I've seen almost everything. Probably not gonna be accurate about that, but I think I. the, the most difficult thing, besides the obvious of tragic events that are gonna happen, unfortunately, just because of the sheer numbers of people, that wears away at me all the time.
[00:34:14] Mark Grisdale: But I think it's when kids don't have a positive experience at this school, I think that reflects on, on me and on the staff. And what did we not do that could have made that a more positive? For that kid, and there are some people that aren't gonna be happy with whatever you do, but at least most people realize that there's a reason behind we do what we do.
[00:34:35] Mark Grisdale: And when we can't make that connection, that's very, that's very hard. The best thing though, is Sure. I love the games. I love to win. I love to be a district champion. I love to be, you know, all those things. I'm like every, as competitive as anybody else with those sort of things. But I like to just feel the energy.
[00:34:52] Mark Grisdale: I like to be around really good teachers that have a classroom really focused and energetic, and the kids are really into it. That's really, a real boost to, to be able to see that and experience that. And I have great faith in the future because I see kids every day that could do whatever they want.
[00:35:09] Mark Grisdale: I've been in a school where we've had a walkout, you can't stop them. If 3,200 kids decide they're not going to class and they're going out, you can't really stop ' And to see kids do things that, I mean, they don't have to, they choose to do them, you know, because in high school it's basically a bluff game anyway.
[00:35:27] Mark Grisdale: You're bluffing teenagers into doing something, we say we're gonna do this or that to you. But in reality, they could do whatever they wanted to do, you know? And I think it's a
[00:35:35] Mark Grisdale: real credit to them that.
[00:35:36] John U Bacon: Don't
[00:35:36] John U Bacon: tell
[00:35:36] John U Bacon: them that, right?
[00:35:37] Mark Grisdale: no, don't. No, absolutely not. No. Heck no. No way. but at least they, I see that they're doing the right things.
[00:35:44] Mark Grisdale: They're trying hard, they're working on things, and they're doing the so many kids that do the right thing. And try to do the right thing and change. And we all know people change and attitudes change over time. And I can't tell you how many kids we've had come back in all my years and say, boy, I was really stupid when I was a sophomore and did this, that, or whatever.
[00:36:06] Mark Grisdale: that's just part of the whole process to me that's very uplifting and very, very rewarding to do that. And that's what keeps me going 38 years public educat.
[00:36:16] John U Bacon: I love it. Scott Drew, I quoted him in the book that you read. He's the former dean of the Michigan Business School, the Raw School. He's now the CEO of Equinox, uh, gyms nationwide. His great line to me was, when you're the dean of the Michigan Business School, you have to lead as though you have no power because you have no power.
[00:36:34] John U Bacon: I mean, the sad fact is it's, it's a bit of a bluff. I mean, what can you, you're, you're not armed. You can't make them march in and so on. You're, you're hoping. My joke about being a conductor of a band of, of an orchestra, you wave the baton and you hope like hell they play because your instrument makes no sound.
[00:36:50] John U Bacon: So, um, hope you're, hope they're with you. But I love all this. I'm gonna boil it down here to a few things, before we, uh, close out here. One is, clearly, and you got this of course, from, Irv Siegler back at Sheboygan High School in Michigan, connect. And that's one of the first things you mentioned, uh, to connect, always to connect.
[00:37:06] John U Bacon: I forget what famous writer said that more than a century ago. Man, if I had to give one quality to any leader, that's it. If you don't connect with your people, the rest really does not count for much. And I recall when I was working, uh, as a carpenter in the summer, uh, in college, my, uh, instructor said, my boss said, uh, what's the first rule of roofing?
[00:37:24] John U Bacon: And I know a bit about roofing, so I mentioned, uh, shingles and tar paper and drip edges. And sun goes, no, no, no. The first row of roofing is don't fall off the damn roof. If you break that rule. Your shingles aren't gonna save you, for me, what is the primary, you know, the first principle, connect, connect, connect.
[00:37:40] John U Bacon: If you connect, you can always have a shot. And if you're not connected, that's a scary place to be. I don't like it. connect is very good. And of course part of that was him being very individualistic. And as far as how I connected with you, you know, didn't have to yell at Gris deal. Might if he yelled at somebody else.
[00:37:54] John U Bacon: You have to know the difference. Um, you clearly had a clear vision when he took over at Tompkins. Very clear. So clear that when a snarky eighth grader asks you a question, you can go boom, boom, boom, with a very clear answer. And by the way, the expression on his face must have changed after that one
[00:38:07] Mark Grisdale: Uh, yeah. Oh yeah. Cuz the kids were like, yeah, let's go. And he was like, okay, alright. And we were in a little cafeteria over a little junior high. Yeah. And that, he's like, okay. They probably said, well, you know, we're gonna be whatever. But I was like, oh, don't, no, we're gonna win. We are gonna win.
[00:38:23] John U Bacon: Right. That was a confident man talking there. I like that. so two clear vision. And what I also like to hear very much is define victories yourself. Uh, celebrate all victories, but you define them. Not the world defines them. You know, if a team was, you know, two and seven last year and their three and six this year and what they had to do for it, that's, that's progress.
[00:38:42] John U Bacon: That's good. That's a winning team. so I like all that. So, last question. You know, it's coming. Who was your favorite?
[00:38:49] John U Bacon: And, and Gris Dale. Gris Dale. If you can't answer this one, nobody can.
[00:38:52] Mark Grisdale: coach Siegler was a big influence on me, but I had another great teacher growing up. his name was Dave Dyk, d y n a k, and he taught a class when I was a senior in high school. It was, humanities and then he took humanities for one semester in government the next, and he just was so forward thinking in terms of.
[00:39:13] Mark Grisdale: We need to do a little bit of art history. We need to do a little bit of philosophy, we need to do a little bit of literature, we need to do all this kind of stuff and just so well-rounded and have the ability to get, you know, in a public high school classroom, you're gonna get everybody. And to get kids interested in the difference between Picasso and Rembrandt and, and all that kind of stuff.
[00:39:32] Mark Grisdale: And just had a very cerebral guy that was so super calm and. Saw the good in every kid that was in the classroom, and that just made a, another lasting impression on me.
[00:39:44] John U Bacon: Clearly, wild guess. Mr. Dak was not easy, was
[00:39:47] Mark Grisdale: Uh, no. We really had to work and do a lot of writing and challenging us and critical thinking skills. I don't know if those were really the, the point of emphasis like they are today, but there was a lot of analysis and, and so forth in there. No, he was not easy. He was. You really had to think in there, and that was, I think, what made him so
[00:40:06] Mark Grisdale: effective.
[00:40:07] John U Bacon: Well, if he saw you today, and I hope he has, uh, Mr. Dun would see that you have graduated 7,000 students. So what he gave you, you've multiplied by at least 7,000. That's pretty cool. So my guess has been Mark Gris. Mark can't thank you enough for coming on. I know you're a busy man cause I know it's, , three 15 in Houston right
[00:40:24] Mark Grisdale: Yeah.
[00:40:25] John U Bacon: you're on the clock.
[00:40:27] Mark Grisdale: I appreciate the opportunity to spend some time with you and, and we gotta get you back down here to Tompkins High School in the near future.
[00:40:34] John U Bacon: I would love to come back. Of course, we'll find a way to make that work. Uh, I'm willing to be creative on that one as well. So, great stuff, great conversation, and it's amazing how just universal the great lessons are towards leadership. Of course. So my guess has been Mark Grisly, the principal of Tompkins High School.
[00:40:50] John U Bacon: In Katy, Texas, one of the best high schools, I believe in the nation on so many levels. And what a great philosophy you bring to the table. You are listening to Let Them Lead a podcast about the risks and awards of leading today. please link it. Please subscribe, please tell your friends and spread the word.
[00:41:06] John U Bacon: And that's how we grow.