Most people know Jack Harbaugh as the father of John, the Super Bowl champion coach of the NFL’s Baltimore Ravens, and Jim, who has led the Michigan Wolverines to two straight Big Ten titles. But Jack took the Western Kentucky Hilltoppers from the verge of extinction to a national title himself, one of the great coaching feats of his era. In this episode Jack tells us what he learned -from paying his dues while climbing up the ranks of high school coaching – including one of his schools that had exactly two practice footballs; -from Hall of Fame coaches Doyt Perry at Bowling Green, and Bo Schembechler at Michigan; -from being fired from his first head coaching job at Western Michigan; -from his tenure taking over a near-defunct program at Western Kentucky, getting them into the playoffs as a 16th seed, then leading the Hilltoppers to a very unlikely national title. Along the way, Jack Harbaugh tells insightful and hilarious stories, many at his own expense, that you won’t forget.
Most people know Jack Harbaugh as the father of John, the Super Bowl champion coach of the NFL’s Baltimore Ravens, and Jim, who has led the Michigan Wolverines to two straight Big Ten titles. But Jack took the Western Kentucky Hilltoppers from the verge of extinction to a national title himself, one of the great coaching feats of his era.
In this episode Jack tells us what he learned
-from paying his dues while climbing up the ranks of high school coaching – including one of his schools that had exactly two practice footballs;
-from Hall of Fame coaches Doyt Perry at Bowling Green, and Bo Schembechler at Michigan;
-from being fired from his first head coaching job at Western Michigan;
-from his tenure taking over a near-defunct program at Western Kentucky, getting them into the playoffs as a 16th seed, then leading the Hilltoppers to a very unlikely national title.
Along the way, Jack Harbaugh tells insightful and hilarious stories, many at his own expense, that you won’t forget.
About our Host:
For info about the book or this podcast please visit our website:
http://www.letthemleadbybacon.com
You can connect with John via these platforms:
https://www.facebook.com/johnubacon
https://twitter.com/Johnubacon
[00:00:00] John U Bacon: Hello and welcome back for another edition of Let Them Lead a podcast about the risks and rewards of leading today. I'm John U Bacon, the author of Let Them Lead, unexpected Lessons From Leadership From America's Worst High School Hockey Team. And as you guys know, I'm not making that up. Special guest today, none other than Jack Harbaugh, a legendary coach in his own right at Michigan, Western Michigan and National Champs at Western Kentucky, a program that almost died before you showed up.
[00:00:27] You might also know him as the father of two other legendary coaches. John and Jim Harbaugh got a few titles amongst them as well, although it must be said, we, we all believe that Jackie Sapi there, your
[00:00:37] Jack Harbough: wife, they're innate question about that. It might be the toughest one of the batch. No question about it.
[00:00:42] She's the head coach of this operation. I promise you. No. Know your limitations. No, no, no, no. She is the head coach. I'm a loyal assistant doing what I can to, to help her put this together. A humble
[00:00:54] John U Bacon: man. And I've earned my lessons two after nine and a half years of marriage. So I'm in your, I'm on your team.
[00:00:58] Uh, you're born in 1939 in the tiny hamlet of Crest Line, Ohio, just an hour north of Columbus. Um, that's right near the end of the, of the Great Depression World War ii. Uh, time is times are pretty tough. But you didn't really feel that growing up, did you? You felt like
[00:01:12] Jack Harbough: you had everything you needed. We had, we had a, I couldn't imagine a, a childhood or a.
[00:01:17] Uh, growing up period that, uh, anyone could have would be more than ours. We had the Sandlot, the movie 19 night, was it 1992. I see that movie and I've seen it at least 20 times. And I can see Benny the jet in that group, and I see Squints. We had 'em all Smalls killing me. Smalls we're killing me. Smalls. We had 'em all and they were in our neighborhood.
[00:01:41] And, uh, in the summertime, uh, 9, 10, 11, 12 years old, eight o'clock Southside Schoolhouse. We'd roll in there, uh, put cardboard down, first base, second base, third base, uh, cardboard. Now, you know, cardboard, we didn't have bases. And the ba the bats were tacked up, you know, you had cracked them. You put a little tack in it and wrapped it up with tape balls were wrapped up with, you know, the, uh, tapes to keep 'em gone.
[00:02:07] And Ronnie Ball was on. That team was on that group. He's now at down in Crest line and he's in, he's in assisted living. I talked to him about every two weeks and he was telling me a story. I'd kind of forgotten. The, the left field was a street, Toman Street. And, uh, you hit it over the, over the street. Of course there was a home run, but there was a guy over there in a house.
[00:02:30] Nick lived next door to him. Mm-hmm. They would take the, when the balls came in his neighborhood, he took the balls. So the left
[00:02:37] John U Bacon: fielders
[00:02:37] Jack Harbough: gotta move fast. He's got, and the idea when the ball was gone, you know, there were three guys. No. And they reminded him to the whole be diving to keep the ball going in the guy's yard.
[00:02:49] And, but the interesting thing, we have a little, some pictures down in our basement, right. And I'm talking to Ronnie on the phone. He's, he was a year older than, than I was and said, I got this basement. He pictures, he said, uh, gates, Brown's down there.
[00:03:03] John U Bacon: Gates Brown, famous Detroit, tiger. Of course
[00:03:06] Jack Harbough: Mike Godfried, the espn Yeah.
[00:03:08] Yeah. Coach Pittsburgh. And his, his brother Joe was an athletics director. We had a bunch of guys. And I said, the guy from that, I just got my picture down there. He said, mm-hmm. So your picture, why would I want your picture? I mean, why would you want my picture? He said, I'm gonna send you one that that'll get on your wall downstairs.
[00:03:27] I'll, I'll show it to you when we're done here. So he sends me a picture. He is in room. It's Pope. That's good
[00:03:36] John U Bacon: enough prison. He's with Pope. Yeah. He
[00:03:38] Jack Harbough: has got a guitar out. Rank us. He's got a guitar. And he's singing for the Pope. For the Pope. And it was the pope that was there for a long time, like 20 Pope.
[00:03:46] John, Paul, John Paul the second. And they're, and, and, uh, and they're looking at each other. They said, Ronnie, and it is on the wall. So before we leave here today, you have to see Ronnie ball with, with the Pope playing the guitar
[00:03:59] John U Bacon: for the Pope. That's a rare, that's a
[00:04:00] Jack Harbough: rare out. So he was a second basement in a, in an outstanding field, eh, around two 50 hitter.
[00:04:07] John U Bacon: Thank field. He could feel, oh, great stuff. Ideal childhood for you. Even despite the. Conditions, of course. Um, football is, the football culture in Ohio is, I think, unequal in the north. Yeah. Alabama might have something like it, maybe Georgia. But in the north, Pennsylvania's good. Michigan's good. But Ohio, the high school coaching, all the resources go to football.
[00:04:30] If you're an athlete in Ohio, you play football.
[00:04:32] Jack Harbough: My first job after graduating from Bowling Green State University was at Canton McKinley High School. Oh, yeah. Massland Canton McKinley. Mm-hmm. And I was a junior high coach, uh, elementary resource teacher. I'd visit all the, the elementary school making, making what?
[00:04:49] 5,000 bucks. Exactly. I, it was exactly 5,000. So, uh, The season was over and, uh, the head coach from the Canton McKinley team mm-hmm. He said there was a week off, they were getting in preparation for the masculine game, 25,000 people for a high school football game, high, high school football game. And he said, boy, I've kinda watching you way your junior high school team played, and I'd like to have you come up and work with our team in a week in preparation for the masculine game.
[00:05:18] I said, Jackie, that's a break. We have now hit time. We,
[00:05:22] John U Bacon: we, we have made it. Can you imagine I'm now a temporary assistant coach for the Maslon heis for the campaign in
[00:05:27] Jack Harbough: preparation for that game. Yes. So, uh,
[00:05:30] John U Bacon: so I think about that though. 25,000 people for a high school football game, and this is in the fifties,
[00:05:36] Jack Harbough: sixties, and they, and they massine high school.
[00:05:39] Football stadium at down 25,000 people was named the Paul Brown who played and coached there. Right. He coached there and played there and, uh, went coached at Ohio State. Of course then of course, of course Cleveland Browns named after Paul Brown. Mm-hmm. So that you were playing in that shadow and, and McKinley had their great, great players
[00:05:58] John U Bacon: from the Michigan perspective alone.
[00:06:00] Ken McKinley's got Dan Deardorff. Mazz Alone's got Denny Franklin. He's our names at any Michigan fans. No. And what did Denny Franklin say that, uh, a lot of Ohio guys go to Michigan and he said only the good ones,
[00:06:12] Jack Harbough: but the other, I'm sure they still love another player at that time. In fact, he and I were in the same class.
[00:06:16] We graduated in 1957, our high school classes from Cam McKinley's. Wayne Fonts. That's right. Who ended up the. Go ahead. Go ahead. Iowa City, he was at Iowa City. I replaced, I was trying to replace him at Dayton Uhhuh. John McVey? Yeah. Was the head coach at Dayton. Mm-hmm. University of Dayton. And he didn't gimme the job.
[00:06:38] He didn't gimme Wayne Vance's job. But you
[00:06:41] John U Bacon: got Wayne Vance's house. I got his house at,
[00:06:43] Jack Harbough: at Iowa, so eventually I caught up with it. But, but Wayne is, uh, uh, A graduate of, uh, Canton McKinley. But anyway, the rest of this story was I went there on a Sunday night getting ready and had all my notes thinking I was gonna be able to really add something to this program.
[00:06:59] He says, Jack, uh, talking to some of my assistant coaches and at Bowling Green you played little quarterback, didn't you? I said, yeah, I did. I, I played quarterback. Was it, you know, I defensive back mainly, but I, I came in, I was recruiter as a quarter base. Here's the idea. We had, we'd like you to be the demonstration quarterback
[00:07:18] John U Bacon: this week, and you're about 25 years old, and now you got kids and no red shirts back then these guys are gonna attack you.
[00:07:24] Jack Harbough: And, and he goes, could you, you know, you know the offense and what we're doing and getting ready and would you be the demonstration quarterback? And I said, oh my goodness. I didn't quite come prepared for that, but I'm ready to go put the shoulder pads I'm in ready, my full pads shoulder first in a few years, the helmet and the whole deal.
[00:07:40] Right? And they just kicked my tail up and down the field for a week and I was so dismayed. And despondent that I told Jackie, I can't watch the game. It's too personal. So we got in our car and drove back and watched Bowling Green play somebody else be there for that game. Uh, anybody think by the way, too much
[00:08:01] John U Bacon: invested to watch anybody thinks people get into coaching for the money?
[00:08:05] Not back then. The, the dues were paid, uh, more dues. And by the way, I'm skipping over your career playing for Deut Perry, the great hall of fame coach at Bowling Green, one of Bo Schmeck, those great mentors as well. Uh, you guys in 1959, I believe were the, uh, small college national champs, you 24 and three in year three years.
[00:08:23] You knew success. Yeah. You saw great coaching. Uh, then you're a high school coach. You went through a few high schools in Ohio underway up one you play in Oxford High School. Uh, the John, the John Falk story. You gotta tell us that one.
[00:08:38] Jack Harbough: So I, my first head coaching job, uh, you're making it Ohio. You're making it.
[00:08:42] They had not won a game in three years. Uh, Dave McClain, who later coached at Wisconsin was, was a teammate of mine at Blowing Green. He was the assistant coach at Miami under Boshe Beckler. Mm-hmm. And, uh, he calls me up, he said, would you get interested, be interested in the head coaching job? I said, I sure would.
[00:09:00] He said, you know, Eaton High School, which is 20 minutes from Oxford, is, uh, they're the job's open and Oxford is where Miami, Ohio is, Miami, Ohio is. And uh, he said, uh, I think if you'd want that job, I could help you get it. I said, well, I'd be interested. So he got me an interview and went down on a Saturday interview, thought I did a good job, waited a week, heard nothing, and waited another week, heard nothing nerve-wracking, nervewracking.
[00:09:23] I thought, well, I'm just gonna call and see where the, where the search is. So I called up. Mr. Mike, so was the superintendent, and, uh, still remember these names. Remember the name and Mr. Mike. So this is Jack Harbaugh, the interview. He said, well, it went well, Jack went real well, and he said, we're still, we're still contemplating and you should hear from us in another week or so.
[00:09:42] And I said, if you don't mind asking, how many other applicants do you have? He said none.
[00:09:49] John U Bacon: I'd never heard this one before.
[00:09:52] Jack Harbough: And I said, I don't know if that's real good. So how hard are you thinking? So I waited about another week and he called me up, you got the job. Hey, don't ask twice. So I go down and you know, I'm all full of vinegar and I'm ready to go.
[00:10:05] And we're practicing and so we tawanda. Yeah. High school was at the high school in, in, for the faculty kids at Miami go. So and so John Faulk at the time was a sophomore or junior at, at high school there. And he was the equipment manager right. For the high school team. And so they're coming to our place for the first scrimmage.
[00:10:25] My first scrimmage, you know, and not even a real game yet. First scrimmage. I'm pressing up like Vince Lombardi, you know, I got his tie and a sport coat on. I think I even had one of those little hats and That's right. You know, put my hat. I was getting ready for the. Scrim me. He said, I'm in the locker of getting ready and there's a knock on the door.
[00:10:41] And the guy comes to the door and he goes, uh, coach Harbaugh, I, I got a real problem. You know, I'm equipment manager. He was an assistant equipment manager. And this is John
[00:10:50] John U Bacon: Faulk himself. John being the legendary equipment manager at Michigan, of course, under Bo and Jim Harbaugh and others. Yeah. So
[00:10:55] Jack Harbough: he comes in, he goes, I got a real problem.
[00:10:57] I, I looks like I was assigned to bring the footballs to this, uh, to this scrimmage. And the head coach can't find any footballs, obviously either I forgot 'em or we lost them on the way, but I don't have any footballs. And he said, you could really save me if you could loan me some football so we could practice before the game.
[00:11:18] You, you're gonna provide the, the game ball, but we need some practice balls. And I said, sure. I tossed him the ball. One football. One football. And he goes, Coach Harbo, just one. Can I get more? I said, John, I only have two. We go, we're gonna, you're gonna warm up with one. I'm gonna warm up with the other one.
[00:11:35] Don't, don't drop it. Get it back to me so we can practice. Not scuffed up Griffin. So we come here and, and I'm here in Michigan City
[00:11:44] John U Bacon: that, that, by the way, is paying your dues. A, a high school program with two, with exactly
[00:11:48] Jack Harbough: two foot tops, two foot. And he was upset
[00:11:51] John U Bacon: when, when you see the resources down there today, you must shake your head at
[00:11:54] Jack Harbough: what you started with.
[00:11:55] And he was ups, you know, give me a look. And I thought, well, I'm trying to, so anyway, I gave you half my supply. So I come here in 73 to
[00:12:03] John U Bacon: University of Michigan. Assistant coach for Boce Becker. For Boce Becker. And you guys are winning. National title, state title, I'm sorry. Big 10 titles constantly
[00:12:10] Jack Harbough: during this time.
[00:12:10] And I'm, I'm caught right into the middle of that, enjoying every minute of it and Right. Coaching. Defensive backs. Defensive backs. So in 1974, I think it is, uh, they hired, John Faulk is hired as the equipment manager. At the uni at the University of Michigan for, and Bo had known him there, right at Miami and, and, and got to know him and, and really liked him.
[00:12:33] So, so one day I'm in the, in the coach's room by myself and John Fox says, you don't know me, do you? I said, dude, now you're John Fa. He said, no, I'm from Tallon to high school, you remember? And he told the whole story over again. So he and I kind of bonded over that. Got a, we get a chuckle over that every once
[00:12:52] John U Bacon: in a while.
[00:12:52] It's, it's where you both started. Uh, by the end, John was making six figures as a equip manager for the University of Michigan. Things changed a lot. And the arc of your careers, you and John, so. That shows you how much the game has changed. I love John Faulk. He's got a million stories, as
[00:13:05] Jack Harbough: we both know.
[00:13:05] He'll call every once in a while and I mean, when I, when I see his name on there, I know this is, this is gonna be interesting and fun.
[00:13:11] John U Bacon: That's interesting and fun. Oh, I've never had a boring day with John Faulk, and I've known the guy for 25 years or so. So that's pretty good.
[00:13:18] Jack Harbough: He's got a treasure now. He's, when Bo left, when Bo left his house at some point in time later, you know, he moved and he had all this memorabilia right, that he had taken from his office and he had it there and, and he was moving into a smaller place and he doesn't have pla for us.
[00:13:35] He calls up John, he said, John, you gotta find a place for this, right? So John went in the truck and got it all and stored it and he's moving. Just recently he's moving and for kind of forgot what it was. And he's going through it and he's finding things that, uh, that are, that's a, as an absolute treasure, I can only
[00:13:53] John U Bacon: imagine.
[00:13:53] And of course, both old, the house is about four doors down where you are now naturally. I was riding with be one night on the way to his speech and we'd driving past his old house. There's the old house and he says, and I said, well, let's, you know, the lights around. Let's go knock on the door. Ah, I don't wanna bother those people.
[00:14:08] Are you kidding me? I mean, Beau is here and they know them well, it's gotta be his house. I mean, so, but he was pretty humble about that. Uh, coaching with Bo was great most days. You said his pre-game speeches were unequal. Um, but you had a very fascinating encounter with him on the practice field that is now part of legend.
[00:14:26] It's been captured in, uh, Bo's book, of course with Mitch album, my book with Bo as well. Um, you're on the practice field. There's some dispute between you
[00:14:35] Jack Harbough: and Bo, but I, I, Dick Hunter had been the secondary coach before me. And they, then they, we got there and they all, they were la coaching, laughing like St.
[00:14:46] Stobart and Jerry Hamlet and Gary Muller laughing about stories. You know, the great story was Dick and Bo got into a confrontation on the field and Bo fired him. I didn't know this one. And, uh, they got, and, and in fact the story goes that Dick Hunter was a very, very good athlete. Mm-hmm. And, and Bo was chasing him around the practice field.
[00:15:09] He couldn't catch him, couldn't catch him. He was joing him and finally go, you're done. It was in the stadium. He had made him walk up the, you're fired, made him walk up the tunnel. And he kept looking back like sure enough he did. Just kept on going. So I'd heard that story. And so now we're at practice and we were so interesting.
[00:15:27] In those days we did not have a seven on seven, you know, the passing of seven on seven, we didn't even have that in our practice schedule. We weren't gonna throw the ball that much, so why waste our time with the seven on seven? But that affected us on defense cuz we didn't get a chance to, to see a passing attack.
[00:15:43] So we kept, oh, we gotta have a seven on seven. I'm not putting it into the practice schedule. We were out there for an hour and 45 minutes and there will be no seven on seven in my practice schedule. So at that time, you know, I think, uh, the offensive coaches felt we needed it. So they, well let's give it to us some.
[00:16:03] Maybe we can do it before stretch. Sneak it out, sneak one in. We'll get 10, 12 minutes out there and sneak in seven on seven before we stretch. We out telling Bo Well, we ask him if we could sneak it in there before. Well, if he don't take any of my one hour and 45 minutes, we can do it. So we went out and we were doing it in the stadium and we had it.
[00:16:25] Dave Brown was our safety at the time. Oh yeah. Oh, all pro. Maybe the best football player that I've ever coached. Number six.
[00:16:33] John U Bacon: All American and Michigan. All pro in the N NFL for the Pittsburgh Steelers winning Super Bowl titles.
[00:16:37] Jack Harbough: Yeah, it's, uh, inter, he had 62 interceptions in the NFL in his career. Wow. 62, that's gotta be about 60 years.
[00:16:45] So for him, and he was like, uh, like Paul Kraus is number one. And he's like, I don't know where, but he's in the top whatever, 10. But anyway, he was our safety and we had a thing when a guy ran a post route. I'm the safety and a guy runs a post route. Mm-hmm. We fronted him up, you know, as you go to the ball, you went through him to the ball.
[00:17:04] Tom Darting can tell you that go, yeah, we could see that on tape. So we had that. And so they ran a post in stretch before stretch. Dave fronted him up a collision, cleans him out. Ball. Ball goes one way, helmet goes another way. Dave and bodies are just flying everywhere. And I hear this voice harba. I said, we don't hit in the secondary.
[00:17:29] We're out here. We haven't even stretched yet. I said, and I gave him a smart ass answer. I said, Bo, we're just front him up. Oops. And I kind of rookie moves. So I turned away from him kinda walk thinking, thinking it own, thinking to myself. That'll get that squared around. And it went deathly silent. At the practice.
[00:17:50] There wasn't any chattering. There wasn't any talking. I, this is kinda weird.
[00:17:54] John U Bacon: And you're walking away and you're seeing the faces looking at you.
[00:17:57] Jack Harbough: I'm walking away not seeing much anything cause my backs to everything, but it's definitely excited. What's something going on here? I turned, boom, he had sprinted, full blast, 25 yards to get into the secondary where I was.
[00:18:11] And I turned, and the bill of his hat caught me right in a forehead. Sure. You were no front of me. It would be no front of, do you understand me? And I didn't know what to do. Tough golf. I didn't want to go feel like I'm backing down, but I certainly didn't want to get back down and thrown out of the stadium.
[00:18:33] It's a narrow margin, isn't it? And I, and, and I'm thinking to myself, I have no experience with this. What do you do? Do you understand? He said, about four times and his bill's going right into my forehead. Boom, boom, boom, boom. And I'm just looking right at him and he's looking right at me and. I can't catch my breath.
[00:18:49] And all it was he said, okay. And he just kind of turned and walked away. I just took it deep. And your heart's beating. God, my heart's beating. I, I thought to myself I was about 30 minutes from giving Jackie a call and say, that's stuff that you're packing away. Keep it in boxes. He's been in boxes. We made be, go.
[00:19:08] So that night we have these meetings over the old center block and um, we had our defensive back meeting and so the players are all in there. Dave Brown is sitting right in the front row. Donny Dex right next to him. I mean, it's Legends. Legends across that board. And David Elliot was one of them in the room.
[00:19:26] That's right. He had a great sex. So I walk in and I thought to myself, how will they bring it up? Or should I bring it up or, Where do I go with it as far as they're related? Cause I didn't want them to Tough call. I mean, I walk in and all the, once everyone 'em stand up, starts clapping. Started clapping, and I thought to myself, I got the room, I worked out.
[00:19:51] But later on, John Faulk told me the story. Oh.
[00:19:53] John U Bacon: And then, and Bo was right behind you. So Bo saw the standing
[00:19:57] Jack Harbough: ovation. He, well, what happened, according to John Faulk, and I never saw it, I'm only going on, what John Faulk said he saw was Bo I went into the room and the door was kind of cracked and Bo came and he saw what happened and he just turned around and, and walked away.
[00:20:14] And John always thought, he felt that being new there, and he didn't want me to be demeaned mm-hmm. With the players. John thought he was gonna come in and, mm-hmm. Come and he both said, I don't need to do that. That's pretty perfectly taken care of Dave. Uh, and he said he just, he looked at the door, he walked,
[00:20:35] John U Bacon: the guys are still on the side.
[00:20:37] Let him have the victory. Yeah. Uh, takes a big leader to do that. Yeah. To let you, I mean, in practice he's in your face, there's no negotiating. Uh, but then to let you have that moment later on knowing that if he cuts you down Yeah. In front of them, you can't coach them. Yeah. And they won't let you coach him at that point.
[00:20:53] Jack Harbough: And I hadn't really proven myself. And the great, another great story about that was Jackie and I didn't get here in, in 73 until like late February or March. We got here about two weeks before spring practice started. It was a late Jim Young, left to go to Arizona, took Larry Smith with him, and then took me three or four weeks to get hired in that job.
[00:21:15] So I came here and we had a complicated set of checks. Hmm. Split guy here and a two guys here. And most, and there were checks going on and I was struggling to get 'em. I was really having a tough time. And, uh, and Dave Brown had been an All American the year before as a sophomore. As a sophomore. And he was, that's his junior
[00:21:36] John U Bacon: year.
[00:21:37] Mm-hmm. And by the way, back then, people, back then, players stick around four or five years. Always. Oh yeah. So very, very few sophomore, all
[00:21:44] Jack Harbough: Americans, no question. And it, and duly earned, but, right. So I'm out there and I'm, and I'm, and he goes like this, he said, and we called it, it was Jack, it was never coach.
[00:21:55] It was Bo Jack, right. Mo, I mean, it was that kind of relationship. He goes, struggling a little bit, aren't you, Jack,
[00:22:03] John U Bacon: Dave Brown's telling you this. Tell me. He goes,
[00:22:06] Jack Harbough: yeah, man. I said, yeah, those, those checks can be a little confusing. He said, I got 'em cold. Don't worry about the checks you coach. Do the things that I see you doing.
[00:22:17] You're coaching, you're teaching, tackling, you're teaching all these different things. You're doing a great job, by the way. I'll take care of the checks. You'll catch up.
[00:22:25] John U Bacon: I never knew that story. That's great. Uh, the title of my book is Let Them Lead. The Players Gotta Lead Sooner or Later. That happened fast in your case.
[00:22:32] And I always, and then, by the way, what a great vote of confidence from a guy you have to have. Yeah. I mean, he's clearly the leader
[00:22:38] Jack Harbough: of the defense, but, but your first reaction is boom. To don't you mean you, you're so embarrassed about it. So you're gonna strike out. Mm-hmm. I didn't strike out. You're right Dave.
[00:22:49] I'm
[00:22:50] John U Bacon: struggling. You do your thing. I'll do mine. We got this. And you and Dave got along famously. Oh. His
[00:22:55] Jack Harbough: wife was just here in the house. Mm-hmm. About two months ago. Dave passed away.
[00:22:59] John U Bacon: Younger than expected.
[00:23:00] Jack Harbough: No. At 52 years old. Yeah. But she was from East La East Lansing. Mm. Her she was here and she and Dave, uh, dated for two years.
[00:23:11] The two years I was here. And, and she was here with her, with her cousin who lives here in Ann Arbor and took her down to the basement. I have a big picture of Dave down there and told the stories and, uh, And we had a, a great, she must have great meeting and, uh, we, we've talked back and forth and she's gonna come back for a game in the fall.
[00:23:29] Yeah. I told her I want her to don du defects here. We
[00:23:32] John U Bacon: get, oh yeah. Donnie's in my block, man. There's three doors down
[00:23:35] Jack Harbough: from me. I see 'em all the time. See Donnie and, uh, and her together and, uh, and relive those, relive those moments. Donnie du
[00:23:41] John U Bacon: defect remains, I believe, the only athlete, uh, drafted by both the N F NFL and the N H L.
[00:23:46] Yeah. I don't think it's gonna happen again either. So how cool is that? The memories keep you going
[00:23:51] Jack Harbough: obviously. But Donny Du defect, the one about him was, he was a sophomore, I don't think freshman played then. And he was a sophomore. Mm-hmm. And, uh, we had, Jeff Steger was here. Mm-hmm. And he had been the heir apparent to be the strong safety.
[00:24:06] Mm-hmm. And Don Donny through spring practice and through the fall camp kept looking good. And he was, he was such a physical guy and. But the thing I learned from him in coaching that carried me the rest of my career was ma was one of those, you gotta point your to here, your eyes are here, your hands are here to fundamentals, power, producing angles, power produc.
[00:24:25] I mean, I'm into all that stuff, right? And Donny dk, he's into him, but he ist into him. The game starts. The game starts. It's just, it's, it's freelancing. And, and, and we're in practice in the spring, and his toe isn't pointed exactly the way I wanted. His eyes weren't were or wanted him, but when the ball snapped, he was making plays all over the field, blowing people up.
[00:24:46] And I, I thought to myself, you know what? Maybe he's one of those guys that doesn't have his, have his toe pointed right here, and he might wanna look somewhere else. And I'm not gonna bother him. This seems to be working okay. It seems to be working okay. And that carried into my coaching career. You found those kind of guys, don't let 'em go.
[00:25:05] And here's another thing I found. Let me, can I blow
[00:25:07] John U Bacon: up my nose here? By all means. It's 25 minute mark.
[00:25:11] Jack Harbough: Just by my note. So the other thing, uh, what was I thinking? It was, uh, the, the part about Donny dk,
[00:25:18] John U Bacon: uh, let him go because he, he knows what he is doing. Some guys, you don't need to have the toes
[00:25:22] Jack Harbough: pointed the right way.
[00:25:23] And uh, and I carry that through my career is I found those kind of guys. Mm-hmm. Is don't over, oh, here's what the, to story I tell him, he, you would find a guy and then Jim's experience it here with Mikey Sanel.
[00:25:35] John U Bacon: Oh yeah. One of my star students, by the way, you spoke them years ago, move, you
[00:25:39] Jack Harbough: gonna move him from def offense to defense and you get him over the first day on defense.
[00:25:42] Mm-hmm. He does everything. I mean, he's knocking passes down and he's blocking first day. First day, and you're not, you haven't coached him yet. Mm-hmm. And he's just recognizing he's doing all that kinds. And then you think, God, when I get ahold of him and coach him, well really coach him up where, where he could possibly go.
[00:25:58] Then you start coaching him three days later and you screw him all up. He can. Then you stand there with his eyes.
[00:26:06] John U Bacon: Okay, let's back it up. Donk football, go
[00:26:09] Jack Harbough: get it. But then, but then he'll, he'll learn it. But you'll overload them to where they don't react. You, you, they become brain locked.
[00:26:17] John U Bacon: Right? Uh, when I was coaching the high school hockey team, we had a four check, it's called Kamikazi, uh, hound and Fox. I wanted it that simple.
[00:26:25] First man body, second man puck, third man, top of the net. Uh, that's it. I don't want, you know, no l no, you know, com No. 1, 2, 2. Don't think skate. Just skate. Uh, and Sanders still, by the way, it must be said for you non-football fans out there piping. The Michigan Ohio Day game from 2022 played in November, last November in Columbus Sanders still made what I consider the most important play of that game.
[00:26:50] Yeah. Uh, he's on the wrong side of the end zone. And you got an all-American quarterback. You got an all-American receiver, uh, and he put the ball exactly where he is supposed to, and the guy caught it. And Sanders still comes across the end zone. Sticks his hand in, flicks it away, all ball, nothing else.
[00:27:06] Beautiful play. If they scored that touchdown, the game is tight. Yeah, yeah. And now you're playing a different game. That was underrated play. If
[00:27:13] Jack Harbough: it was underrated. But if you look at the play and you look at it, I mean, if you were a coach textbook, Everything he did on there was textbook. You know, the guy had a step on him.
[00:27:22] Mm-hmm. And you don't get handsy and try when you get hands into your feet locked into the ground. That's interesting. You can't run. You, you keep your hands in, you keep your hands in tight, you wanna reach out. Mm-hmm. You wanna do something to desperate, but you don't, you keep your hands in and you're focused on hi his hands.
[00:27:38] And when his hand goes up, your hand goes up and you kind of lean back into it. Mm-hmm. I mean, it was total textbook.
[00:27:45] John U Bacon: Textbook and all ball. No hand, not a question
[00:27:48] Jack Harbough: about a call. No, no. It was perfect. I mean, uh, and now if you're gonna field goal
[00:27:52] John U Bacon: or whatever else they're doing at that point, was that fourth down?
[00:27:54] I forget it's third down. I know that.
[00:27:55] Jack Harbough: But that was, uh, that, yes, I agree with you. That was. Play of the game. Gotta love that. Don't over coach him. So
[00:28:00] John U Bacon: don't over coach him. Don't over coach
[00:28:02] Jack Harbough: another. A big lesson I liked that one time would've been me and my, I could have outcoached him to, to, had never made that play.
[00:28:09] I could have been happy to over,
[00:28:10] John U Bacon: over coach the hell outta him. Um, you got the head coaching job at Western Michigan, um, and BOG gave you a bit of advice before you left. What was the advice as he told you, whatever you do, be
[00:28:23] Jack Harbough: yourself? Well, he, he didn't, I learned that there, I don't know if he, he ever told me that I, I wasn't my, myself, I, I got fired there and rightly so.
[00:28:31] I mean, I would've fired me. Mm-hmm. Because, uh, you know, I was all, I was all over the, all over the playbook, all over the field. And I was, every day I would say, what Bo, how would Bohan that, what would Bo do? What would Bo do? And, and I was, and it wasn't me. I was, I was trying to be someone else and got let out.
[00:28:51] And then the second chance I had, which normally you don't get a second chance, I just said to myself, I don't know, I love Bo, but I'm just gonna try to be Jack Harbo. I'm just, I don't, I'm not sure who he was. Mm-hmm. But I'm gonna be, be him. And it took me about, really about 14 years to find out really their who I was.
[00:29:08] But I finally found out in the 14th year we were able to win the championship.
[00:29:12] John U Bacon: Oh, we gotta back that one up cause it's too good a story. But the advice is so good. When I was 22, I was at Culver Academies in Indiana. My head coach, uh, Al Clark still has the record for the most wins of any high school coach.
[00:29:23] Yeah. And he did it in the cornfields of Indiana. This guy. Is the real deal. Um, and I asked him for any advice. I was 22 and I said, what do I do? And it wasn't excellent. Anything else? He said, whatever you do, don't try to fool these kids. Yeah. They will know you better than you know yourself by the end of the season.
[00:29:38] Yep. And I thought, that's really good. They, they smell it. They smell authenticity. Yeah. Um, and they smell phoniness. Yeah. And I don't know why, how or why they do, but they do. Yeah. Uh, so there you are Western Kentucky, though you are leaving out some cool parts. You've been assistant coach at Pitt and some other places.
[00:29:52] You got your head coaching shot again at Western Kentucky, the Hilltoppers. But this program is about to die when you take it over. They're debating cutting the program before you get there.
[00:30:02] Jack Harbough: Well, the, when my third year there I was, we're getting ready for spring practice. In fact, yesterday, one of our former players in, in 1992, he's working with Motorola and they're doing a conference in Detroit.
[00:30:12] So he stopped over for about four or five hours and we were able to re reach the story. So the athletic director comes into the office on a Friday and we're getting ready to start spring practice on a Tuesday. And he said we we're, we have an appointment with the president at three o'clock this afternoon.
[00:30:28] So he and I walked up the hill and, uh, Dr. Meredith and we're, we're dropping football, packing the foot football equipment away that mm-hmm. Last game that's been played at Western. And uh, I know you got spring practice scheduled for Tuesday, but I would strongly recommend that you cancel spring practice.
[00:30:48] We're gonna announce it on Monday. You're that close. That's how close we were. And, and uh, and I said, what? Tell me, said, well, five four vote board. 5, 4, 5 for it. Five solid votes. And, uh, we're gonna vote at the end of April. And this was my fourth week in March. And uh, and I got the votes and I said, well, that one vote could be changed possibly.
[00:31:14] So we went and he was telling the story. He was, we met with the team in the locker room, told him that he met with the president, dropping football. You
[00:31:22] John U Bacon: laid the card to the table with your
[00:31:23] Jack Harbough: players and he recommends we don't practice. It's up to you. You make the decision. If you wanna practice and take a chance that we can get that vote changed, raise your hand and we're gonna practice if you say that there's no sense of doing it.
[00:31:39] Risk injury. Uh, we have our scholarships, you know, for the remaining of this year. He wasn't gonna give it to him the second next year, at the end of the year. So we have our, that's what you want. Just raise your hand that you want, want to not do it. And he was tell, I thought all of them raised their hands to do it, but he said there were about five or six that didn't, didn't raise their hands.
[00:32:00] But the rest of it, they were overwhelmed. They were overwhelmed. So we practiced. And the funny thing was that we, we had, uh, we got tw 2000 people would come to our practices and they had, you're the only game of town. They had hats, you know, save football. Oh wow. They knew it was going on. And the fans, because it was announced that we wouldn't have it.
[00:32:21] Right. And we weren't getting any, I mean, recruiting was out. I mean, we couldn't recruit, didn't do that. Right. We had to cancel about four of our games cuz they went out and rescheduled when they said we weren't gonna play. And, uh, so we, we practiced at the end of April. The chairman of the board was a former football player and he persuaded, well he did, he got persuaded by all those people that had, so
[00:32:46] John U Bacon: he had voted against you the first time?
[00:32:48] The former, he voted.
[00:32:49] Jack Harbough: Oh my gosh. And he voted against us. He changed his vote to give us five in favor of
[00:32:54] John U Bacon: keeping football. And you know why he changed his vote? Cuz you guys kept at it. Yeah, there's, if you guys quit that day, there's no
[00:33:00] Jack Harbough: way you're going to vote. No, he would've, he would, he didn't get, deny nothing
[00:33:02] John U Bacon: at that point.
[00:33:03] And then,
[00:33:04] Jack Harbough: uh, and
[00:33:05] John U Bacon: then he, wow. That, that, that is, that is faith.
[00:33:07] Jack Harbough: And then we had at the end of, we went to the board meeting at the end of April, the room is packed. You know, everybody's there and I'm there sitting there and they go through all, we're going, should we have put sidewalks over here? And should we put blinds in the, the dormitory where they're going through all this stuff?
[00:33:24] Get it to my,
[00:33:27] John U Bacon: my heart's packed sidewalks, blinds. Come on
[00:33:30] Jack Harbough: people. I mean, they're going through all this stuff. So finally, this is my life. So finally the vote, it was going to, there, there were nine of 'em up there, and they went right across the back of the room.
[00:33:42] John U Bacon: And you're wa you're, you're working your hands and I'm losing count.
[00:33:47] Jack Harbough: Yay. Nay, yay, nay, yay. I'm going. I'm trying to keep track of what it is. And finally the chair, the board is four to four. And they say, how do you vote? And they goes, I vote yay. We're gonna have football. Wow.
[00:34:01] John U Bacon: Wow. And the room just that is, that is drama. And the room went, yes. But that is a great lesson in faith.
[00:34:07] I mean, why'd you keep practicing? Practice is hard. You know, look, hockey practice can be fun. Basketball practice can be fun. Football practice is hard work.
[00:34:14] Jack Harbough: And these kids were practicing with the idea that they, this is probably the last football they'd ever play in their lives. Wow. Was that spring practice?
[00:34:20] What a cool thing. So, so you saved it. But then they say, we're gonna take 13 scholarship. We got 62 scholarship. We're. The, the, the 13 scholarship cuz it was a financial thing in there, right? Mm-hmm. Right. Uh, we're gonna take two co We only had six coaches. They took two coaches off ourselves. Oh God. They might,
[00:34:39] John U Bacon: they might as well have killed you.
[00:34:40] Jack Harbough: That's what I told 'em at the afterward, that, well, you prefer a slow death rather than slow suicide. Right. So we're gonna do it. They, and they took half of our operating budget, thank God.
[00:34:52] John U Bacon: But we kept football. So what, what's your paycheck looking like by now?
[00:34:57] Jack Harbough: My, my paycheck? I mean, make, I didn't get raised.
[00:35:01] I won't point that, but I didn't lose anybody. In case you're wondering,
[00:35:04] John U Bacon: in case you're one about, and John Harbo was on your staff now? No.
[00:35:08] Jack Harbough: Oh, he wasn't anymore. Not John, John was at, he was at, uh,
[00:35:11] John U Bacon: Cincinnati. Okay. Already on his way. He was with you at Western
[00:35:14] Jack Harbough: Michigan, of course. At Western Michigan. But what happened then is after this happened, uh, Jim was coming, he was with the Bears, right?
[00:35:21] So he's coming through, just starting his career, his career, and he was right in, I, in 92. He was only okay. Six years out. But he was getting, so he's coming through, he, he's got a place in Florida, so he's going down there and he, he's getting paid
[00:35:33] John U Bacon: more than you at
[00:35:34] Jack Harbough: this point, I think. Well, quite a bit more.
[00:35:36] And so he comes in and I'm there and he says, dad, what? What are you doing here? He says, what do you mean when I'm, he says, you're in recruiting. I said, Jim, we are in recruiting. It's, it's, it's, it's useless, hopeless. We can't get recruits. He said, well, you're just gonna sit here on your ass and not do anything.
[00:35:51] I said, well, it, I, what do you think I should do? Well, how can I help you? I said, how can you, you got a job, you got a full-time job, right? He said, I don't have a full-time job now. Mm-hmm. I'm going down to Florida. I'm gonna be in Orlando. How can I get on your staff to where I can recruit? So I said, well, let's call the president and see what we can do.
[00:36:11] And he, he wants no money. Mm-hmm. All he wants is a title. You got two openings, right. There's two openings here. Give him a job. The pro bono one. And then the president goes like, yes. Uh, you think he'd take the test? You know, the, the recruiting test? I said, I think he's got a Michigan graduate. I think it'll be all right.
[00:36:27] It's an open book test. I think he'll do
[00:36:30] John U Bacon: well. People forget, Jim was an academic all Big 10, by the way, so, and he said
[00:36:34] Jack Harbough: if he, if he signs a contract as assistant coach takes the recruiting test mm-hmm. He can, he can recruit. Mm-hmm. And of course, he, in the fall, he won't be here and anything. So he goes, I, so he took the test that day.
[00:36:45] He came back and said, got it. So I said, okay, here's a list and here's a recruiting list of Florida. Here's my wishlist, here's the list. First name was Willie Taggart. Oh yes.
[00:36:55] John U Bacon: Willie
[00:36:56] Jack Harbough: Taggart, well known. Willie Taggart was the first name on the list. And with a phone number. Give the phone
[00:37:04] John U Bacon: people. This old school, this is the push button.
[00:37:06] Phones? Yeah, cell phones. You
[00:37:07] Jack Harbough: know where I'm going with it might even been the dial type. Right. Western at there we were a little behind times. Cause when he gets on the phone and this Jim Harbaugh, you know who Jim Harbaugh is? And he goes, I only did Jim Harbaugh as a coach, uh, plays quarterback for the Chicago bear.
[00:37:22] This is him. Mm-hmm. My dad's here at Western. Can tell you're looking for players. Got your name on the list. What are you doing Tuesday? I'm coming to, I'm coming to Florida. Coming to see you. Coming to Florida. Will he say, well, at noontime I'll, we got lunch and I'll be, I'll be in the lunchroom. And Jim said, I'll see you at 12 o'clock.
[00:37:39] The high school lunchroom. In, uh, Manatee High School. There you go. Down in Florida. So, so Jim goes down and then Willie tells a story later that he's thinking, Jim Harbaugh, come on. He ain't coming. In fact, he asked Jim when I, he said, I also know Mike gk. He thought it was a, one of his, one of his friends, kind of, right?
[00:38:00] No, I said, I, I know Mike dka, but I know him pretty well. Yeah. So he goes down and Willie says, I know he's on my, you know, Jim Harbaugh is coming to school, can't be, so he doesn't tell anybody. So he's in the lunchroom in case he's gonna be a fool
[00:38:15] John U Bacon: about
[00:38:16] Jack Harbough: it. Right? Yeah. He didn't go anywhere. And he, you'll, and here comes the principal with Jim Harbaugh.
[00:38:20] With Jim Harbaugh on his, on his shoulder. He comes down there and introduces them and they, and so then, uh, he asked Willie if he had a visit. We got a lot of visits in Western, Western Kentucky, and not many people coming in, I'm gonna, he said, I'm gonna be up there in two weeks. I'm coming to Western Kentucky for the recruiting weekend, and, Why don't, uh, why don't you just come up and join us?
[00:38:43] And he did. And he brought a running back at that time that ended up, didn't come with us. He went to, uh, Nebraska and he was in, uh, a great game with Nebraska and I think it was, uh, Missouri. Mm-hmm. Uh, they lost the downs. Oh
[00:38:59] John U Bacon: yeah. The, the fifth Don man, I think he might have caught the pass. The,
[00:39:02] Jack Harbough: the, yes. The guy from man, the kick the, the, the pass on the fifth down.
[00:39:06] Oh yeah.
[00:39:07] John U Bacon: Michigan fans know that one very well,
[00:39:09] Jack Harbough: but he was, but that was Willie's teammate. No kidding. He was gonna come, he's a serious player. Right. And then Jim after that, 24, 25 players. But the guy that was feeding Jim the players was John at Cincinnati. He had a recruiting list. Mm-hmm. And so he's given Jim, all the kids from Florida.
[00:39:29] So the two of them are in conjunction. One of 'em is Joe, no, one of 'em is, uh, what was it? Mel Mitchell. Okay. He was from Rockhurst Rock, not Rockhurst, but Rock ledge, I think high school where the Kennedy Space Station is. Oh yeah. His dad worked in Cape Canaveral. Cape Kennedy. Right. His dad worked in at Cape Canaveral.
[00:39:47] Mm-hmm. Mel Mitchell's. So Jim went down to get him, to get him. He ended up winning a Super Bowl. He went with the Patriots when they, not a bad list. And he was the
[00:39:57] John U Bacon: saints. Isn't it a hell of a thing though, when your words is a parent come back to bite you in the butt. Yep. Uh, when you're, when your kid's old enough, say, well, you're new.
[00:40:05] Sit in your butt. Yeah. I mean, it's him being Jack Harba to you. Yep. Uh, I attacked the day with the enthusiasm. Unknown man. This isnt you. I, who are you? My seven year old, two weeks ago, I was gonna do something. And then he look at me like he's hurt. He says, dad, I thought you said the bacon boys never give up.
[00:40:19] He's like, Okay, okay. You're
[00:40:22] Jack Harbough: right. And you pat 'em on the back and say, yes, you're getting it. That's great. So we're gonna do it. But, but just the last quick story about this is we couldn't schedule any games. I don't know, I, I'm sure I told you this story. This is 92, 93. This, we had no game. So our athletic director comes in, he goes, I think I know how we can make some money.
[00:40:40] We got this game. The Russians are coming over to play. An exhibition season in the, in the, in the country. A a, a rag tag.
[00:40:48] John U Bacon: Bunch of Russian players. They, they were all,
[00:40:50] Jack Harbough: they were all former, uh, guys that one guy would finish second in the 200 meters for the Olympic. They're all athletes.
[00:40:56] John U Bacon: His football, he was the running
[00:40:57] Jack Harbough: football player.
[00:40:57] Okay. The middle guard was a wrestler, uh, Olympic wrestler. Okay. They were all guys that power producing angles. They were, they were all guys that had, couldn't play, you know, their right. Their bodies had kind of where they couldn't play and they wanted to stay, so they took up football. They took a coach from Texas, a high school coach, and brought him over to Russia coach to be the head coach.
[00:41:20] He was gonna be the head coach, and, uh, an owner from Houston took the team. So they bring them in, they start out, the first game is up in Chicago. Mm-hmm. They play an exhibition game there. Then they're coming, he's, he brought this up too. When they came to Western, all they wanted was housing and food.
[00:41:38] That's it. They wanted no money at all cuz the owner was gonna pay for all that, but they needed housing and food. So we put 'em up in a dormitory, worst dormitory on campus cuz that's the only place they had rooms. Mm-hmm. Because, right. And the other thing is we McDonald's on Monday, right? Big boy on Tuesday.
[00:41:55] I mean, they were, so Wednesday they come and they're practicing. I went out to see 'em and they're good looking guys. I mean really good looking guys. And the coach was coaching 'em. And so on Wednesday we got a problem. They're, they're rebellion. They were, they were going to boycott the game. They weren't gonna play because they came to, they didn't come to eat at McDonald's.
[00:42:13] They came to eat at fancy nice restaurants. And we were feeding them there. And this dorm was a, and they, and, but the other thing they did, they brought their wares with them. The Iron Curtain had just opened up, right? So these guys, three years earlier, right, guys dropped their uniforms, soldiers just dropped their uniforms.
[00:42:30] And so these guys collected 'em all up. They had vodka. He bought, he said what he did, he bought vodka. Boxes of vodka they had on the bus. Ugh. And the remember the the Little Dolls where you got a doll? Oh, yeah. And a doll. And a doll. There's a name for them. And I forget what it was. They were selling them and they were making money.
[00:42:47] Mm-hmm. The players were making money going through the country and, and selling all this stuff. Vodka dolls right now, they aren't gonna play. So the owner flies in from Houston to talk him into playing. So Jack Harbaugh, great idea. Friday we're gonna have International Day, we're gonna, our coaches are gonna come out and coach their players with our players.
[00:43:11] Mm-hmm. They're defensive backs with Join Ours. We're offensive line, we Goodwill Mission, we're gonna have a practice. And we called a B, C and we told 'em what we're doing and they sent a crew and a gal that still, I, I think it might have been Holly, what might have been with a, B, C, Holly Rowe. It might have been, but I, I could be wrong.
[00:43:28] Mm-hmm. But they sent them in, and so they're taping. Here we are, ladies and gentlemen, we're at, we're at the stadium here, and there's a practice going on that they're all practicing. And the head coach and I and our athletics director were, were standing on a 50 yard line looking out and thinking to myself, what a wonderful thing this is.
[00:43:45] You know, countries after the Iron Curtain has been, so we're at Western. So all the, once a car pulls in at the one end and these three guys get out of the car and they got trench coats on dark trench coats, ties, you know, looking serious. Ooh. They're walking up and they, these are not coaches. I, I got the guy's name and I can't think of it, coach so-and-so, and he, he thought they're, I'm coach so-and-so.
[00:44:11] I'm the head coach of the Moscow whatever they were, Moscow Zas, I think. And they go, sir, you're under arrest. Put your hands behind the, the coach was the coach. They're, they the guy from Texas. The guy from Texas. They're handcuffing him. And he says, how did you find me?
[00:44:28] John U Bacon: How'd you find me? That's not good.
[00:44:31] That is not good. How'd you find me? And I was, he's not particularly shocked, I think, I like to think that you or I would be very stunned to be arrested by anybody. He was not.
[00:44:41] Jack Harbough: So the, how'd you find me? He said, that's not quite good. He said, well, you know, you played, your team, played in Chicago and on the Chicago Tribune.
[00:44:49] They had a little picture of you on the front page. Cunningham was his name. Cunningham. Cunningham bringing his team from Russia to play here in Chicago. And he says, your wife's caught up with you, your $45,000 in arrears as it relates to child support and whatever else. Ah, that's what we, that's what pretty,
[00:45:10] John U Bacon: not pretty common, sadly.
[00:45:12] Yes. So they bring the
[00:45:12] Jack Harbough: car in Uhhuh now, and the cameras are rolling. ABC's right there. He's being put in the car, take his head in the car, drive 'em out the other end. And we're standing there thinking, well, that's different. And he did, and assistant coaches were rushing guys that didn't know much about football.
[00:45:32] He was kind of doing it all by himself. Right. So I think to myself, what a, what a, I gotta do something here. So their quarterback was a guy. He spoke a little bit in English. So I went out and I Jack Harbo, I know I'm the head coach and I just wanna let you, they just arrested your head coach. They're taking him to jail.
[00:45:50] And he goes to me like they, and I'm, I'm, I'm, you know, I'm being a low coach. Don't they do lot of that in our country?
[00:45:59] John U Bacon: The Russian players, ed
[00:46:01] Jack Harbough: Unfazed, they back to the drill, right? So the athletic director, he's Oh, oh my gosh, you just, they just lost their head. What, what are we gonna do? What are we gonna do?
[00:46:10] We, we gotta to get, get a playbook. I said, they, they know the plays. Yeah. So one of our coaches was, was an old guy because we only had four coaches at the time. So Right. Brought a two guys outta retirement that had been there like 15 years ago. His name was Lee Murray. I said, Lee, coach, you are now the head coach.
[00:46:27] No, the Moscow Stars, Moscow ra. You are now the head coach. He goes, oh, last guy's in jail, by the way. And then he goes like, he, and then Butch Gilbert was the other guy. He said, well, can Butch be my assistant Butch? You now he is, you're the head assistant coaches. I said, go with your team and see what they're doing.
[00:46:45] Get some offenses and defenses in there. So the next night, and we, we didn't get near as many. We had about 7,000 people. That's all we had. And so we, uh, first play of the game, we kick off to them. Two yard laws, two yard laws, two yards. It's a third down, about 16 to go. The punter goes back to punt and the personal detector backs the kick.
[00:47:07] Right? Right in the button, right in the touch stop. So the game's gone pretty well for us. We're in the second half now, and our special teams had been bad all year and we were kicking off to them. After we had scored a touchdown in the second half and this guy that had the 200 meter guy, yeah. The sprinter caught the ball on about the goal line.
[00:47:31] Uhoh came down our side, like who? I have never seen a man run so fast in my life. He went by, I fell a wind as he went by it, they scored, they put it on the scoreboard. I said, I'm looking over to the coaches win. Then put you over there for them to score. It's working too well, and there are waving flags over there and this guy scores.
[00:47:51] So it ends up like, It wasn't bad as you'd think, like 42 to seven or something respectable. So the game is over and teams are getting together, and I'm going through the player, I think his number was 24. I'm looking for 24. 24. The speedster. The speedster walks up and he, Jack, I'm the head coach. Jack Harbaugh.
[00:48:08] And have you ever played college football anywhere you ever been rolled in school, anywhere where your clock might have been starting, right? I said, I get you a full scholarship. You could put, oh, coach, no, I, I I'm not interested in playing football. So they hit you, right? Yeah. That's my, my recruit was gone.
[00:48:26] Well, you heard that
[00:48:27] John U Bacon: story. I heard parts of it, but that's still hilarious. Uh, I, I did not hear the, how'd you find me part? That's not
[00:48:35] Jack Harbough: good. Oh, the next part of it was funny was the next day we're looking at the tape, you know, it was a Saturday night game. We're looking at the tape on Sunday and I pick up the phone and.
[00:48:45] And it's a, there's a collect call from Warren, uh, county, uh, uh, sheriff's department where Western Kentucky is where Western Kentucky is, and he's, you, coach Cunningham is collect call for you. And I said, I get, he said, coach, how you doing? He said, yeah. He said, I guess my guys put up a heck of a fight, didn't I said they did coach.
[00:49:04] He's been very proud of him. He goes, Uh, would you, could you send me a projector and some film down so I could take a look at 'em on film? See how they play? I said, what do you think you're gonna get out?
[00:49:16] John U Bacon: That's when you realize what an addiction football coaching must be, because the hours are so long.
[00:49:21] It's so hard. Uh, how many years later are you in the national playoffs? It was 10 years later. We won it 10 years later. Uh, and you're out of 16 teams. You're seated. 16th. We're 15th. 15th. Sorry. Right. I give you little, give you a little respect. 15th outta 16. You're not supposed to win it, obviously. Yeah.
[00:49:38] But you start going on a roll. You're picking 'em off team by team. You're in the finals at close game, tight game. Yeah. Uh, you call a couple plays, you win the game. Of course. And the next day you get a call from Bosha Beckler. Right.
[00:49:52] Jack Harbough: It's, uh, Well, the thing about it was we won the game and next morning, you know, we're getting calls from friends and mates, we're getting phone calls and I'm just, it's eight o'clock and the phone starts ringing 10 o'clock, nine o'clock.
[00:50:05] Right. 10. When you're both gonna certainly call, it was a Friday night game. It was the only game played. It was, it was December 20th, 2002. The only game being played on television.
[00:50:18] John U Bacon: That's right at night because it's pre bowl games, basically. Pre bowl. And
[00:50:21] we
[00:50:21] Jack Harbough: were playing the game and certainly both saw it.
[00:50:24] I'm right, not him. It's Brandon.
[00:50:26] John U Bacon: And, and you and you and both have been in touch, obviously. Oh yeah. He knows where you
[00:50:29] Jack Harbough: are, what you're doing. And I know I'm just waiting for the court, but I'm just, I'm just so bold. I've I've been, you go ahead. I'm just, I'm so boy. I just, I don't want him just call him to say, Jack, I'm Congratulations.
[00:50:40] I'm proud of you. That's all I wanted to hear. Right. So fur . Sha Becker, I recognize your voice. Yeah.
[00:50:48] John U Bacon: There's only
[00:50:48] Jack Harbough: one leg. It he did. He never said congratulations. He goes, well, lemme ask you a question right there. Before halftime, you ran the option into the short sign of the field. What the hell were you thinking?
[00:51:04] John U Bacon: The fact that you won four straight games to win the first national title at Western Kentucky. And his question is, a play before halftime, it ran to the smart side. What the hell are you thinking? Were you thinking? And then he, that, that is as close to a congratulations
[00:51:19] Jack Harbough: as you might think. Oh, that, explain that, that when I hung up the phone, I had a smile on my face.
[00:51:22] Did you expect my son? Did you expect more?
[00:51:27] John U Bacon: You're not a rookie. You've been around that block for 30
[00:51:29] Jack Harbough: years. And, and we're, and the funny thing is, here, I, I say this, you know, we're just talking here, but every once in a while I see somebody run. The option short into the short side of the field. And I think of myself, it's one my pet peeves.
[00:51:41] But anyway, and I, I always think is if Bo were still here, what the hell, hell you think would be the response class that they would get on that call.
[00:51:51] John U Bacon: My brief bro, story related to yours, of course, I've never coached football, uh, I never played college football or anything like it. But, uh, did a big story in Beau that came out on a Sunday, Boeing retirement, two and a half pages in the Detroit News, which back then, it's a lot of space, a lot of like finished top 10 in the nation on channel four, on WJ r.
[00:52:08] But didn't hear from Bo on Monday. Okay, we're all busy Tuesday, nothing. Wednesday. I'm getting nervous. Thursday I can't take it. He must be white hot, ticked off about something. Put on your coat and tie bacon. Go down there, take your medicine. And I see Lynn Cook. I see Mary passing and old friends of yours.
[00:52:23] And I say, well, how's Beau doing? He go, huh, that's my kid. And then he see bacon. Is that you? Yes. Get in here. And, and, and Mary passing gives me the sign of the, gives me the sign of the cross. That's not good either. It's kinda like, how'd you find me? Uh, he gets behind me. He slams that thick wooden door shut.
[00:52:41] And then I hear the Tumblr turnover. He's locked the damn sit down. And I sit down and I'm like a 10 year old kid again. Like, how's he do this? I'm a, I'm an adult. I won on awards. What, what's happening here? And he says to me, words, Jack, I will never forget as long as I live very similar to yours. What the hell?
[00:52:56] You don't go to the short side. He says to me, he said, well, bacon, you didn't screw it up. And frankly, I'm surprised. Never ask the best review of my life and never ask for more good enough. You meet one of those guys once in your life. Oh, um,
[00:53:12] Jack Harbough: what's it like? Go ahead. Cause I was gonna say, you know Shimmy's back.
[00:53:15] Yes. And I saw him at practice yesterday and he's all excited. Shemy is Bo son. Of course. Yeah. And, uh, he's back working in the scouting department. He's been in the nfl. He's good at it. Right. He's been in the f l for 10, 15 years. Res and the Chiefs. Right. And he's sitting there, he's talking and he's looking and I mean, what a, what a great addition he is to the, to the program.
[00:53:33] Everyone
[00:53:34] John U Bacon: there can spell his name. I mean if, so
[00:53:35] Jack Harbough: I found out how do you spell Shimmy?
[00:53:37] John U Bacon: Uh, S H E M y. Throw out the C.
[00:53:41] Jack Harbough: There's only two. There's only one M Shem. I thought there were two M's in it. Ah, nothing. He said his grandfather was shimmy with one M and he's gonna be, and he's
[00:53:50] John U Bacon: shimmy with one M. And you throw the C out also.
[00:53:52] Shem Beckler. Oh yeah. C goes out and there you go. So, um, We're gonna speed ahead. We're having too much dog on fun here. This is Jack Harba. I should have had a break 20 minutes ago, but screw it. Here we are. We're rolling. Uh, now you're, you've won a national title. You've gotten as close to Bo's approval you're gonna get, but you know, he loved it.
[00:54:09] You know, he loved it. Um, you've got Jim and John in the Super Bowl. You kind of can't lose, but you kind of can't win. Um, that must have been stressful for you. Of course. The, uh, the Har Bowl. Yeah. Uh, the 49ers of course, versus the Baltimore Ravens John wins naturally close game down to the wire, and then a few years later, you have a heart attack.
[00:54:27] When you're living in, uh, Milwaukee, at Marquette University where you're the athletic director, the two boys come back and they're, uh, you're, you've gone through that operation. It's gonna be okay. Uh, but you're deeply sedated. Uh, the boys, it's two o'clock in the morning. It's dark, and I don't think they're necessarily chess players, but they've gotta compete at something.
[00:54:45] They can't just sit there talking. So they find a chess board. They start playing, and of course they start arguing almost immediately. Tell us that story. Well,
[00:54:52] Jack Harbough: the, the whole operation is, it's, it's kinda interesting. Be, uh, it just happened, it was seven years ago. It was, it was the halftime of the North Carolina, uh, Villanova game.
[00:55:04] Mm-hmm. Right at halftime basketball was sitting there watching the game and, and it kinda, I said, Jackie, we need to go. So God was looking over me because we went and we went and they looked, they said, make a time. And the guy, they, they said, you know what? All the tests show that you just having heartburn, but at your age, we're gonna keep you overnight.
[00:55:25] Four o'clock doctor came in with a white thing and said, these enzymes have really popped up. You had a heart attack. And, uh, I'm gonna do the, the, the scope tomorrow. And which was Tuesday. The game was played on Monday, Tuesday, and Thursday did the operation. So I'm there on Wednesday as a whole day. I'm just waiting for, for the operation operation.
[00:55:44] And Jackie's there. And pretty soon John comes in and Joni comes in and Jim comes in, what are you all doing here? Joni, their daughter. Of course. Yes. What are you all doing here? We're gonna be here. So, uh, about eight o'clock, eight 30 is gonna have to get up early at six o'clock in the morning. So, uh, we're gonna go home and, uh, so they go home.
[00:56:06] And so if I'm looking at the clock, I can't sleep. And Jackie's with me. She's in the chair over here. And Jackie, your wife, the clock. I remember seeing three o'clock and now on one say,
[00:56:19] I can't breathe. I can't breathe, my legs won't move. It's Jackie.
[00:56:25] John U Bacon: Jackie, your wife's
[00:56:26] Jack Harbough: saying this, she's saying that she's in the chair over here. I didn't know this. And so I go, Boom. Hit the plug and they boom, they come running. Mr. Harbo, Mr. Harba. No, her. So they come over one in the chair, the weather, she, and she's still can't breathing.
[00:56:42] And I'm thinking, oh my God. And the, the bed's like this. She's here. And they have to go around the bed to get her, and her blood pressure is down like 40. I mean, it was, oh. And the nurse is saying, I, I need a, I need a gurney. I need a gurney. And the, she came back and said, we have none on this floor. She said, this is whatever it is.
[00:57:01] You're getting ready to get operat. She said, what do you mean there's not a gurney here? And I'm listening to all this, that big gee man, Christmas. So they, uh, finally, they, they found a no, the wheelchair they needed, but they can't get the, the bed, the whatever it was, maybe it was a gurney. They couldn't get it around the, the bed where I was at the end.
[00:57:19] Right, right. So now they unplug everything on me and wheel me where I'm on the wall over here, out of the way, out of the way over here. And they're doing her. And finally they get her, and then she's gone. And everybody's gone. It's just me. I'm unplug. Hello. And that's exactly what I did. Hello. Is there anybody out there?
[00:57:43] John U Bacon: I'm the heart attack patient. I would like the plugs back
[00:57:47] Jack Harbough: in, please. And my wife, she's going, is she okay? I'm trying to just tell me something. There's a lot going on, going on, A lot going on. So finally they come back and said, we got the, everything stable. We just was, she was in this chair and she was all cramped up and the blood was all out.
[00:58:03] But she's fine. She's fine with, she'll be back here in about about 20 minutes. So in the meantime, Jackie calls and she's back now and, and now they got me wheeled. I'm plugged again. I'm now, it's like five and I'm six o'clock. I come, it's the clock's winding down. And Jackie comes in, he goes, I called the house to tell him that you know what had happened.
[00:58:24] And she said, Joni answered. And uh, Oh no, the, the, the hospital called mm-hmm. To tell him. And Joni thought it was, something happened with me and they said, no, it's your mother. And Joni says, I knew it. I knew it. I knew, I knew she was gonna, I knew she was gonna go down. She shouldn't have. We told her to come home with us, not stay there.
[00:58:47] Right. We knew it would be heard. So then they all come back. No, they don't. They didn't wake Jim up. Mm. They thought they, they just left a note. He, John got up when the phone was going on, but Jim just kind of sweeping through it. So they just left a note. Your mom went down and Mm. And she's okay and they're gonna operate.
[00:59:06] So kind of catch up with us. Mm-hmm. And so they, so that was where that was. So, but, so Jim, come back. So when the surgery's over now mm-hmm. And I'm laying there and I got this thing in my mouth. I feel like a shoe.
[00:59:20] John U Bacon: It's the breathing apparatus,
[00:59:22] Jack Harbough: but I had a pain right in back, my back and I'm just screaming my back doing something, my back, my back and no one can hear you.
[00:59:30] And then, then, oh, what? They put me out, right? Mm-hmm. So that's the last thing I heard until, until Jim and John are back, the plain chest. I wake, I wake up and the room is dark and I'm looking, there's a window there and it's pitch dark outside the, I'm looking at, it's dark. I don't know what time. It's 8, 9, 10 o'clock at night.
[00:59:51] So I was operating on like it, well, what time it ended and then that episode I had and now mm-hmm. The whole day's going on. I'm thinking I'm alive and I see a little light right at the end of the bed. A little light now hears, talk nice talking. I wouldn't do that. You sure should I do that? He said, why wouldn't I do that?
[01:00:11] He said, and I heard a voice say, we've already lost four in a row and if you make that move, it's gonna be five. And so the other guy says, well, reminds me rather quick rather so, and I goes, hello, hello? I'm the guy that had the heart attack. Give me a little
[01:00:30] John U Bacon: attention. These guys are ignoring you. They're supposed to be there for you.
[01:00:34] They're so enwrapped and they're, and they're going back and they're going back, Jim and John and back and forth. Their great line to me was, at first I think, Hey, I've died of God in heaven. No, this is, that's,
[01:00:43] Jack Harbough: this is the way it's gonna be for eternity. That's
[01:00:45] John U Bacon: far worse than I was told. I forgot about that.
[01:00:48] I was told it was bad, but not this bad. Not the same fourth grade arguments,
[01:00:52] Jack Harbough: but then the next day, you know, it's time to get you up and all that. So the physician comes in and they're just a great, the physician was just a amazing, amazing guy. So come, he goes, you know, I've, he was like 40, 42 young guy, and he goes, I've been doing this for a long time.
[01:01:07] He said, something happened yesterday that I've never ever seen happen before, and I think, I think I should share it with you. And they, no, no one was there at the time. I said, what was that? He said, what was your one son? No, I think. Take away. Probably something Jim did. Yes, you can. Jim and John. Probably Jim, you're one of your sons.
[01:01:25] I, so he said, well when you came outta that thing with your back mm-hmm. And he said, you were in pain. He said, and we've tried to get stuff to you as quick as we could, but it was obvious that you were in in deep, deep pain. And he said, look over to your one son and he's filming it.
[01:01:44] John U Bacon: Let's be some good
[01:01:45] Jack Harbough: highlights for the NFL work. He's putting it on, putting it on the video and he, what the hell are you doing? Your dad is, and he goes, he'll wanna see that. He'll wanna see
[01:01:54] John U Bacon: and break it down later.
[01:01:57] Jack Harbough: Put the phone away
[01:01:59] John U Bacon: that, that is when coaching is in your bloods. You gotta film it.
[01:02:03] Jack Harbough: Yeah, we gotta
[01:02:03] John U Bacon: film it.
[01:02:04] How else gonna break it down the next
[01:02:05] Jack Harbough: day? How can we have something over it that we can, we can use at some point in time? It's a different
[01:02:12] John U Bacon: kind of family, isn't it? It's so great stuff. You're back in Ann Arbor. I'm gonna close with this one. When, uh, Jim gets the job in 20 14, 20 15, and very end of 2014, uh, he's here at two or three months and you and Jackie are living in Milwaukee.
[01:02:25] And you've got Joanie, of course, who's in, uh, Athens, Georgia with her husband, Tom Crane, the basketball coach John is in Baltimore with his family is coaching the Ravens. So you're in Milwaukee. You can go to any one of these three cities and Jim makes a pitch. He calls you up and says, dad, we're breaking down film here, and it's very clear that we need you here in Ann Arbor to help me.
[01:02:44] And what'd you say? Uh, this is when you say, oh, bs what you need is a babysitter. Oh,
[01:02:51] Jack Harbough: yeah. It's kind of interesting on the whole thing though, is when, when he, he called us on Sunday, he hadn't made up his mind. They were playing their last game, I think against Arizona and he, Baltimore Ravens,
[01:03:02] John U Bacon: oh, this is the 49ers.
[01:03:04] Jack Harbough: 49ers. And, uh, he wasn't gonna be back. He knew that. And he had had some offers from some No Oakland, the Jets, the branders, some teams had, had, had shown some interest. And so he called us at home and asked us, What he thought. And Jackie said, don't go, don't go to Michigan. Don't go to Michigan. You can't, you can't go home.
[01:03:22] It's not gonna be the same. She said, don't go. It's, uh, it's, I don't. And uh, he asked me what I thought and I told him, I said, well, both of us love Michigan. Mm-hmm. You know, I love the seven years with Bo. And you've played there. You know, you won five years with Jim, right? And you won all, you, you beat Michigan State twice.
[01:03:41] You beat Notre Dame twice. You beat Ohio State twice. You went to Fiesta Bo finished number two coming off of a bad year. You've, and, uh, lot of good memories. Then you went to the Rose Bowl and, uh, and I think you need Michigan and I think Michigan needs you. My recommended, I, I would like to see you go. So he, uh, he waited all and, and then he came and, oh, then he said me.
[01:04:04] Then he said to me, if I go, will you come with me? Will you come, will you come? And, and, uh, and, uh, help me. And, and then I said to him, I said, Jim, you know, football has really changed dramatically, and, and I really know you're gonna have your family there. You got those three little, he had two, that they had three, then they didn't have Johnny yet, and you're not.
[01:04:31] Really looking for a coach, and you don't need coach. You're gonna be surrounded by coach. You just want Jackie and I to be in Ann Arbor and be close enough that, that we can be better. He, eh, you, you're right.
[01:04:42] John U Bacon: Calling him BS and the coach idea, what you need is a babysitter. You're looking
[01:04:44] Jack Harbough: for baby then, and he wasn't there.
[01:04:46] He says, yeah, you're, you're probably right. Well,
[01:04:48] John U Bacon: here you are as we look out your window, of course, right up the hill, 10 feet is your son's house. And I noticed it's a very well worn path. Yeah. Uh, from that house down to this house, right there you go. That the grandkids come down to
[01:05:01] Jack Harbough: see Popa. We had, we had 'em last night.
[01:05:02] We had 'em here. Johnny stayed all night. Jack and Jim came down. Mm-hmm. Uh, for about, uh, 45 minutes. I got it on my phone. Jim texted me this morning, he says, uh, we're walking back up the hill. Jack and Jim were going back up the hill. And he said, Jack turned to me and he said, dad, The greatest thing is having, uh, grandma and grandpa down here, he said we could be living wherever we could be living.
[01:05:29] He said we could be. He, Jack said we could be at a beach looking over water. Mm-hmm. And it wouldn't be near as to have, uh, yay and papa right here, down here. Yeah. And Papa. So he, he texted me. That's right. On the, on the, and I told Jim, I said, uh, what's, who's got it better than us? Who's got better than us?
[01:05:44] Get that kind of a
[01:05:45] John U Bacon: compliment. Nobody, as we say, I always like to sum up a few things here. Uh, I could do a lot from this one of course, but, uh, one, uh, the Dave Brown lesson, uh, let them coach you when they can. Yeah. Uh, take his advice. Now, like I said, it's easy to be defensive and say, I know what I'm doing, but Dave Brown was Right.
[01:06:03] He's got the checks. You got the rest. Yeah. We're okay. Yeah. Uh, the Donny Du fact lesson, once in a while, you get an odd duck. Yeah. In a good way. Uh, that the normal rules don't apply. If he can do it without the normal rules, fine. Uh, let, don't, don't, don't overco. Yep. Uh, great ones. Don't over coach great ones.
[01:06:20] Don't Overco the great ones. Uh, Mike from, from Don Duvet. Uh, Mike Sand still, of course. Same thing. Uh, be yourself. A lesson you learned the hard way and then the right way from western Michigan to western Kentucky. Not least faith. Um, you guys kept practicing at Western Kentucky when you should have been thrown the towel Yeah.
[01:06:38] By anything on paper. Yeah. Uh, that led to one of the greatest experiences I think, of your life. Um,
[01:06:44] Jack Harbough: it, it, it's, it's, it's a legacy that I've. Two things. Number one, you don't often get a second chance. I was blessed to get a second chance. Right. But the other thing is to recognize that you, your the way of that I was doing it wasn't, wasn't gonna work.
[01:07:02] Hmm. And to change. And I really did. That's where this became a different, just became a different coach. Hmm. Practiced last time we late in life. That's hard to do. And it, it, but it was so easy because I really understood that I. Had blown a pretty good opportunity by Ed Western, not learning that lesson.
[01:07:22] John U Bacon: Hmm. That's gotta be humble, of course. Last question. Who was your favorite teacher? I ask everyone this one. I love this question because everybody in the world jacked from Vancouver to South Palo, Brazil, San Chile. I've asked this question in English, Portuguese, and Espan. Everybody in the world can come up with it in about five seconds,
[01:07:39] Jack Harbough: no question.
[01:07:39] Uh, molten Dewal.
[01:07:41] John U Bacon: Molten Dewald, there's
[01:07:42] Jack Harbough: a hell of a name for you. M o u l t o n Dewal, d e w a l t was our, our, uh, seventh or 10th on 11th grade. Teacher CREs line. One thing about Crest Line, if you go back to CREs line now, CREs Line High
[01:07:55] John U Bacon: School in
[01:07:56] Jack Harbough: Ohio. Yeah. Uh, he was an English teacher and he, he never smiled and he was always doing his fingernails or something, but he taught us how to diagram sentences and I don't think they teach that anymore.
[01:08:12] Barely. I, I learned. And I was never great at that, but I learned how to put sentences together.
[01:08:20] John U Bacon: That's fascinating. A friend of mine, Jim Tobin from Ann Arbor, U of M grad, won some big national author awards. He's teaching at Miami of Ohio. He told me last week, I swear to God, Jack, that in his class can divide those who learned how to diagram sentences from those who didn't.
[01:08:35] Yeah. Uh, it is still a powerful tool, not one that I have, I have to fully confess. So Molten DeWalt, was he easy? Hard, hard. Here's a fascinating thing. I've asked that question about 300 times. I found no commonalities. Race, gender, religion, gray topic, cold, any of these things, uh, except for one zero out of 300 were easy.
[01:08:57] Yeah, zero out of 300. But on some level he cared about you cuz he pushed you. Yeah. Uh, he didn't give up on you. Um, and that's a great lesson there. Of course. That's what leadership is in a nutshell. So, Jack, too much fun. I always have too much fun talking to you. I always feel greedy with your time. I know you're a busy man.
[01:09:13] Uh, Jack, by the way, a few years ago, at age 80 or 81 or so, came, walked two miles to my class with a backpack, stood on a chair lecturing 150 students firing brimstone. The whole hour. Just fantastic. Walks two miles back and I had a ton of great. Great teachers come down. Carol Hutchins. Eric backs the old baseball coach, of course Red Berenson.
[01:09:35] And you had the highest evaluations of anybody. So this is how you live. So you're enjoying these years. Can't be much better.
[01:09:41] Jack Harbough: If I'd have known anything about how to park, I
[01:09:44] John U Bacon: would've, I,
[01:09:46] Jack Harbough: I would've driven. I would've driven. But the, the meters are so confused. Used to be used to go and get a quarter right and you could park sense.
[01:09:54] Nowadays you gotta have numbers and go to machines and it's just far beyond me. And as you already know, we had a couple of engagements where I think you had to come pick me
[01:10:03] John U Bacon: up. Happy to do so. I know where you live, Jack. Too much fun. You have been listening to Let Them Lead a podcast about the risks and rewards of leading today.
[01:10:13] I'm John Yu Bacon, the author of Let Them Lead, unexpected Lessons in Leadership From America's Worst High School Hockey Team. Please tell your friends, leave a review and subscribe. We'll keep it going. We'll see you next week.
[01:10:25] Jack Harbough: So how long does this program last you?