In this episode of the Let Them Lead podcast, host John U. Bacon sits down with Pete Heeringa and Chris Fragner, his former high school hockey captains at Ann Arbor Huron, the subject of Bacon’s book, Let Them Lead. They discuss the valuable life lessons they learned on and off the ice, proving that hockey is more than just a sport; it's a means of developing lifelong skills and relationships. The explain how the team’s basic values – work hard, support your teammates – help the team define itself, and allowed the players to focus on their behaviors, which they controlled, not their results, which they often didn’t. The two also share how they've made hockey a big part of their lives without playing professionally, by leveraging their passion to propel their careers in finance and engineering, respectively. They also discuss the lessons learned from former Michigan hockey coach Red Berenson, and their favorite teachers, Ms. Thompson and Professor Brophy. That these two started out as high school players of Bacon’s, and have since become close friends and mentors themselves – their sons are older than Bacon’s! – is a testament to the depth of relationships sports can create. About our Host: For info about the book or this podcast please visit our website: http://www.letthemleadbybacon.com http://www.johnubacon.com You can connect with John via these platforms: https://www.facebook.com/johnubacon https://twitter.com/Johnubacon
In this episode of the Let Them Lead podcast, host John U. Bacon sits down with Pete Heeringa and Chris Fragner, his former high school hockey captains at Ann Arbor Huron, the subject of Bacon’s book, Let Them Lead. They discuss the valuable life lessons they learned on and off the ice, proving that hockey is more than just a sport; it's a means of developing lifelong skills and relationships.
The explain how the team’s basic values – work hard, support your teammates – help the team define itself, and allowed the players to focus on their behaviors, which they controlled, not their results, which they often didn’t.
The two also share how they've made hockey a big part of their lives without playing professionally, by leveraging their passion to propel their careers in finance and engineering, respectively. They also discuss the lessons learned from former Michigan hockey coach Red Berenson, and their favorite teachers, Ms. Thompson and Professor Brophy.
That these two started out as high school players of Bacon’s, and have since become close friends and mentors themselves – their sons are older than Bacon’s! – is a testament to the depth of relationships sports can create.
About our Host:
For info about the book or this podcast please visit our website:
http://www.letthemleadbybacon.com
You can connect with John via these platforms:
https://www.facebook.com/johnubacon
https://twitter.com/Johnubacon
[00:00:00] John U Bacon: Ooh, welcome back to Let Them Lead a podcast about the risks and rewards of leading today. I'm John U Bacon, the host of the podcast and the author of Let Them Lead, unexpected Lessons in Leadership From America's Worst High School Hockey Team. And as you guys know, I'm not making that up. The stats, back it up, but that's a different story.
[00:00:20] John U Bacon: Today we're talking to two of my all time favorites. Chris Fragner and Pete Harring, the stars of that book. So get that book when you can. These guys were the captains of the team in oh three. The best team in here on hockey history and after three years from being the worst team, of course, and we'll dive right in.
[00:00:36] John U Bacon: So these guys were teenagers when I met them back in 2000 or so, and now of course they're in their late thirties with wives, kids. Obligations, homes, mortgages, and whatnot. So we'll see how life has treated them since. So you guys were great players from the start early on in your careers in squirts and peewees and whatnot, playing AAA most of your lives.
[00:00:57] John U Bacon: You had a lot of options in high school, including aaa, of course, where you already were playing. What was your thinking when you debated playing for Huron? My team, of course, that had been 0 22 and three a year earlier. First year was seven 17 and one. So improved but still not great by any means.
[00:01:13] John U Bacon: And high school hockey is often considered not as competitive as aaa. What was that decision making process like for you and how did you make it?
[00:01:21] Chris Fragner: Well, for me, basically I didn't play a full AAA season. I played some with Pete in just travel hockey around Ann Arbor and in Brighton. And the decision to, to play high school hockey for here on. Almost felt like giving up on hockey in a certain way. , what I mean by that is that it was an opportunity to focus on school to try and get into the best college I could and to To try to, still play hockey, but it wasn't gonna be the focal point, it was kind of a decision, Hey do you wanna go play for a triple 18 that I had made?
[00:01:49] Chris Fragner: Or do you wanna and potentially try and play college hockey? Or do you wanna, be able to play other sports and have fun and enjoy high school to the most while trying to, still play hockey and be with your friends a little bit more. And so it almost felt like, like giving up on hockey in a little bit, which Becomes a little bit ironic I guess.
[00:02:07] John U Bacon: Well, there you go. And we that's kinda where we were at the time, and it must be said for you non hockey fans out there in aaa, travel team hockey, which is what he has offered. Chris was, and Pete was their junior and senior years. You play around 70 games or so, almost an NHL style schedule. And while you're still going to school and you're playing these games late at night, far away, so it's, you're gonna miss a lot of school in the process.
[00:02:28] John U Bacon: And the coaches don't necessarily care about your academics. It's not their problem. They're not graded on that. So whereas in high school you play about half as many games, about even fewer than that, about 25 or so. As part of a scholastic schedule, you don't travel that far for the away games, of course, maybe an hour or two and the occasional overnight trip.
[00:02:44] John U Bacon: So that is, those are a lot of reasons why, of course the experience is very different. Pete, what about you? You had about the same decisions to make in fact, exactly that Chris had.
[00:02:55] Pete Heeringa: Yeah. Yeah. My, my recollection of that time was we were both playing on the same team together with several of our childhood friends sophomores in high school and heading into everyone's junior year. I think most of our good friends were leaving to play for their high schools, some for Catholic Central, some for Orchard Lake, and.
[00:03:19] Pete Heeringa: So it was an opportunity to, for several of us to continue to play together. But it also seemed to be the trend that most of our friends and peers were were following. So it, it was maybe less of a deliberate choice and more of just kind of following, the what a decision many of our peers were also making at that time.
[00:03:42] John U Bacon: Did it feel to you as it did to Chris that. Okay, you are now officially downshifting your hockey career.
[00:03:48] Pete Heeringa: No, I, for me, I think I think growing up I was, hockey was important. It was one of the major things that I did, but I it sort of grew from as I got older and so, It didn't feel like I was sort of heading down. It was parallel and perhaps, as we went on from high school, growing a bit from there, so it didn't feel like
[00:04:12] John U Bacon: Oh, there you go. So in other words, Chris is wrong, is what it sounds like. Okay. Thanks.
[00:04:16] Pete Heeringa: in.
[00:04:18] John U Bacon: That is undeniably true. And that was true from the start. Your style as a player are very similar. Your talent level is pretty much the same. But yes, different personalities, no doubt figured that one out. Early on aside, Chris's mom was a teacher, of course still is, I believe. And his dad, a home inspector, highly regarded in Ann Arbor and Pete, of course, your dad is a professor at University of Michigan.
[00:04:38] John U Bacon: So, in both cases hockey was never seen. I think in either family as the be all and the end all, it's clearly important. You're clearly very good at it. But it was not considered the only thing you're gonna be doing the rest of your lives. So, That I was admired when you guys came down to our first workouts in the spring and the summer I pulled you both aside and gave you a little talk.
[00:04:57] John U Bacon: What do you recall about that? And the talk was based on the fact that you guys were by far, talent wise, the best players on the team. And I knew that going in. Everyone knew that going in. So the question is, how would the rest of the team accept you and how would the head coach yours truly in his second year?
[00:05:11] John U Bacon: How would I handle all that? So do you guys recall that conversation?
[00:05:15] Pete Heeringa: Yeah, vague. Yeah, I think vaguely. I think that reading the book definitely brought back a lot of memories that helped freshen things in at least my memory. So, yeah, I think I, I think our, at least my impression coming in was that we both had respect for. What you were trying to do with the program and the energy that you brought to it.
[00:05:36] Pete Heeringa: But certainly for me, I think it was maybe a wait and see and we, the definitely the coaches that we had the year prior and the years prior. The coach that we had the year prior was a mentor to both Chris and I. A lifelong mentor, a friend, and a serious person who had, serious ideas on leadership and making men out of young boys.
[00:06:02] Pete Heeringa: And so I think by the time we were 15, 16 years old, the idea of respecting your coach and was clearly cemented. So I think we, had. Had attitudes that were conducive to what you were trying to do.
[00:06:19] John U Bacon: There's no question about that and we're about to test that theory that summer and you guys came through with flying colors. You guys are being too nice, of course, but I recall pulling you aside and doing with you exactly what Bo Schackler, the old Michigan football coach. Did with his all-American left guard.
[00:06:34] John U Bacon: Left end, sorry. Dan Deardorff and when he said, you are by far the best player on this team and you're ready for the nfl now you're one of the best a linemen in the NFL and you're still in college and Dan is feeling very proud of himself and very good, and that. That's when Bo says, and that's why you will not do a single thing right In my eyes all year.
[00:06:52] John U Bacon: I'll be on you for everything cuz the rest of the team isn't watching how I handle you. If I treat you like an All-American and those guys like, average players, they'll resent you and they'll resent me. So what we did instead is exactly that. I pulled you aside and said, look, for the next few months at least you'll not do a thing right?
[00:07:09] John U Bacon: In my eyes, at least not publicly. And I will behind you guys left and right. I'm telling you right now. Stay with me, be patient. Cause what's gonna happen is this, after a while, the players who might resent losing two spots to guys who weren't there on the team the year before I'm gonna take your side of this thing.
[00:07:23] John U Bacon: I'm gonna be the bad guy and it'll all work out. And I believe that's exactly how it happened by the end of that summer. They all liked you and they all hated me. Perfect. Bingo. That's my goal. So that's how you handle super talented people. By the way, guys, you're tougher on them than the other ones.
[00:07:38] John U Bacon: You let 'em know what you're doing, and that way no one resents them being on the team. So, and of course to prove it, both you guys quickly became captains at Huron and earned of course, very quickly the respect of your peers, in part because nobody worked harder than you guys on and off the ice.
[00:07:53] John U Bacon: You're also very good students, both of you when you're two best players, by the way. Happened to be two of your best students and the two hardest workers on the team. That for a head coach, solves a lot of problems. And for that I was grateful amongst other reasons to have you guys on the team. What do you guys recall from your first adjustment to the here on hockey program?
[00:08:13] John U Bacon: What you took out of it and your highs and lows of your two years?
[00:08:17] Chris Fragner: Yeah, I remember
[00:08:18] John U Bacon: This is where someone talks, by the way.
[00:08:21] Chris Fragner: Bacon. I remember that summer. Well, and I remember you, how hard you worked the team. I mean, it was it was by far the hardest off offseason workout. And you, and I was impressed with how many different folks you got around the program. You got Sergeant Bob to run us and.
[00:08:36] Chris Fragner: I don't know, yell cadence at us as we were running around Gallup Park and then around the track, and then we ran the football stadium steps at the big house. And and I remember Lapper and Coach Ned and Pete and just all the wonderful coaches that you got around us. And so your voice was certainly clear and loud but you also had maybe area experts for each part of what you were trying to instill in us.
[00:08:59] Chris Fragner: And so I think that was That, that was really tremendous. And the more I, time spent away from it, the more I realized how impactful that, that and lasting that was on me. And in my life. I can see draw very direct lines to, to kind of, what you did in, during that time and very directly that, you had big impacts on me.
[00:09:17] Chris Fragner: I've stayed very close with many of those coaches. Not just you but most of those assistant coaches and I certainly would be happy to talk about some of those, but I'm still involved in many ways with a lot of them. And so yeah, that, that sticks out to me. We worked in incredibly hard, I remember you, you explaining that we were, trying to fill our tanks.
[00:09:35] Chris Fragner: We were getting ready for the third period against the toughest teams that year. And and really trying to change the culture in, in being able to say that, if we were, if anything, we were gonna be the hardest working team and everything else would kind of come from that. And so yeah that first summer especially I, I remember putting in a lot of work and and also enjoying it.
[00:09:53] Chris Fragner: And you did everything from get us to dress the same and show up on time and and then also kind of change the culture of it's not cool to try hard, before I remember being at some of the workouts for here on high school hockey and it. It seemed almost cool to be maybe a lazy teenager or like, they have an I don't care attitude and I can only imagine how hard that would be to change for a bunch of teenagers and to change the way that they approach working out and pushing hard.
[00:10:19] Chris Fragner: So, I that, that part has stuck with me.
[00:10:24] John U Bacon: I appreciate all those things. Of course. And again, this is all from the book, let Them Lead. Chris, of course, and Pete are, you'll see their names throughout the book naturally. You're definitely right about the assistant coaches. You did not have the best coach in the state, but I guarantee you, you had by far the best assistant coaching in the state.
[00:10:39] John U Bacon: Ned Glisten, of course. Pete, you're Mike Lari, lapper, you called him, of course. Even Sergeant Bob, who drove the Zamboni. Didn't skate that well, but he's a Marine, so I wanted the marine aspect. So he and his marine buddies took us to ar to the arboretum at Michigan and kind of killed us basically.
[00:10:55] John U Bacon: It was a brutal workout where we find out what that what, but what being a Marine is all about. That was pretty cool too, when you're right, the biggest thing to change and the culture was the attitude that we're too cool to care. It's not cool to care and. I think that with this generation in general, that is the biggest thing to get through.
[00:11:12] John U Bacon: It may seem corny if you're not used to it. It may seem old school, but you have to care and you all have to care and you have to admit that you care and all these things, right? There are hard cells in some ways, but without that, you'll not get very far. So, Pete, what are your recollections of all that and your highs and lows?
[00:11:30] Pete Heeringa: No I think Chris summarized it really well. I think that some of the real memories that stick are the physical pain of the workouts. I, I've mentioned to at least my son, the I hadn't realized or experienced, myself or teammates throwing up because you've worked so hard, and your stomach becomes unsettled, whether it was running or skating.
[00:11:52] Pete Heeringa: And so I think it's a good lesson to learn in terms of seeing how far you can push yourself physically before your body really pushes back. So I, I remember the intensity of the workouts for sure. And yeah, Chris is. The mentioning of the coaches that coming back. Yeah, I think that was impressive.
[00:12:12] Pete Heeringa: The group that you were able to pull together. This was not your first season, but in relatively short order to build that staff around you that was trying to, pull in the same direction that you were. And I think that, in reading the book some of the things definitely.
[00:12:28] Pete Heeringa: Rang true. And others less just because some things are gonna resonate more. And one of them that did is the concept of making things, that, making things hard is a tool that you can use to make people wanna be part of something that just by virtue of being difficult, something can become attractive and meaningful.
[00:12:48] Pete Heeringa: And I think that's a lesson that, that I definitely took away and. And a big part of the program in terms of not necessarily winning and losing, not necessarily goals and goals against, but you know, the value of being the hardest working group and taking pride in that. So that's stuck with me since for sure.
[00:13:11] John U Bacon: Well said, of course. And granted, I'm biased in both your cases, but you nailed it. That one philosophy of course, comes from your old coach at Culver Academies, Al Clark, who's one bit of advice to me when I took over the program is you have to make it special to play for Huon. I, of course, cracked that.
[00:13:27] John U Bacon: Well, we're already the work team in America. We've not won a game in a year and a half. That's pretty special. And he said no, that's not special. He said, The easiest way to make it special is to make it hard and you think that makes no sense at all. It's paradoxical. But you think about the Navy seals or the Peace Corps that they don't apologize for it being hard.
[00:13:45] John U Bacon: They don't deny that it's hard. They brag about it being hard. They celebrate that fact. And then Al added, if your guys know. They had to do things that other people would not do just to make the team. And with a little encouragement, they will instill the culture themselves. And I often say in my speeches, the culture is not what the leader says, what the coach says, the teacher, and so on.
[00:14:05] John U Bacon: It's what you guys say when I leave the room. Now, how that room works when I walk out, that's our culture. Cause I can't be there all the time. Of course. No head coach can, no leader can. So I had complete faith. During our workouts, if I had to talk to the ad for a little bit or a parent or whomever I could turn to you guys and say, seniors run this workout.
[00:14:25] John U Bacon: And I knew it would run like a top and probably even better than when I was doing it. And one of the all time great examples of that, I'll get to. We're on a 14 game winning streak your senior years, and that's about two thirds of our season. It's a whole lot better than the 10 game losing streak we had my first year.
[00:14:39] John U Bacon: So we've gone from 0 22 and three to 17, four and five the third year, but we finally lose a game to Trenton, one of our arch rivals, best team in the state. Close game. There again, we're getting closer and we lose to Pioneer after beating them the first time. That's Ann Arbor pioneer, our arch rival when they bring in a goalie from Finland.
[00:14:57] John U Bacon: Guy's got a beard. That's cheating, man. I swear to God. That's cheating. But anyway, so we lose that game and now we've lost two in a row. You started getting paranoid and that's when I called you guys up and said, tomorrow night you guys are gonna coach the entire game. And you guys said, what does that mean?
[00:15:11] John U Bacon: I said, you'll see. And of course we're playing a rank team, Riverview. They're good enough to beat us. Good sound team. We're better than they are, but not by a lot. And you guys picked the lineup. You guys changed the lines during the entire game. You guys talked to the team during the intermissions.
[00:15:25] John U Bacon: You guys talked to the news after the game. Final score here on six Riverview Zero. And the zero always impresses me more than the six. You guys can score goals. That's great. That's often individual or two or three players. Team defense, all six guys on the ice. I've gotta know what they're doing every shift out there and feel accountable to each other.
[00:15:46] John U Bacon: And the zero really impressed me. So at that point, we're on a roll, we're ready to go. And that's what you guys did, of course. So, as I've Awesome said, I never scored a goal here on hockey player, and I never scored a goal as a coach. That's all you guys. And Pete, I loved your point also about finding your limits during the workouts that you learn pretty quickly that what you think is your limit today.
[00:16:06] John U Bacon: And you keep on hitting that limit. It's not your limit tomorrow. You can keep on breaking your limits and expanding those things, and that makes you obviously much better player. Great line from Scotty McConnell. The harder you work, the harder it is to surrender and the bigger you can dream. So the hard work itself has value in itself, let alone how much better you get in the process and your conditioning.
[00:16:26] John U Bacon: But the hard work itself makes you a better team. So, and you guys of course always grabbed that. We had a joke in the team of course, that you guys are this close in ability your entire lives. Chris had a slight edge his senior year, so we're promoting him for Mr. Hockey and of course Pete Harring was Allstate.
[00:16:43] John U Bacon: No question about that. All league as well. But the joke on the team was that only one guy could keep Chris Fadden from winning Mr. Hockey, the best player in the state. And that was yours, truly because when we're ahead by four or five goals, I sat you guys and played the other guys, of course. So I cost all you guys.
[00:16:59] John U Bacon: I must have cost both you guys 10 goals each, so on a team. One of the key lessons there is everybody should get everything they need, but nobody will get everything they want. And one of my favorite scenes from you guys is Scooter McGee, Scotty McConnell not our best player, but one of our favorite players.
[00:17:17] John U Bacon: Of course, he had not scored a goal his career yet, his senior year, so I. I kept on putting you guys out there with the big goal leads, three or four goal leads. I tell you guys, you are not to shoot ever on this the next seven or six or seven minutes, and Scotty McConnell don't play any defense. Don't worry about that.
[00:17:34] John U Bacon: Get in front of the net, put your butt in front of the net. All right. When the puck comes, you bang it towards the net. And you guys generated a lot of great chances for Scotty over a long period of time. Still couldn't put it in. Finally, our senior night we're had five, nothing against a good team. That was 19 and three, but that was our night.
[00:17:50] John U Bacon: And you guys came to the bench with about 30 seconds left saying, coach, we did all we could. We're gased. And I said, I know you did. I love you guys. I respect you what you did. But Scotty McConnell's still out there. And Scooter somehow steals the puck, goes down the Dexter goalie bangs it once, comes right back to him, bangs it again, goal 3.2 seconds left in his entire career at that point.
[00:18:14] John U Bacon: One of my favorite memories, and it's instructive, a note that John Eldridge, one of our better players who was on the bench, has said to me years later that was his favorite goal at Huron and he was not even on the ice for it. So you guys did a great. Great job of taking care of the entire team, not just your stats, of course, and the win loss record.
[00:18:32] John U Bacon: And I will always for be, for, be grateful for you guys for how much you engaged the entire team, including the taxi players. So that was a stroke of maturity on your part. And another one. We had a great season. Of course, we're ranked fourth in the state. We're ranked at 53rd in the nation. We've passed 97% of the country's teams in just three years.
[00:18:52] John U Bacon: But we get upset in our final game versus Plymouth Salem. We outshoot 'em two to one, but we lose in overtime. That happens. But after the game, You guys are there in the locker room and a lot of guys are crying. Some guys are hiding their heads in a towel. It takes 10, 15 minutes or so until finally you guys, the seniors start taking your stuff off and they start taking it off too, and that's when on the way to the shower, Chris Fragner, our captain.
[00:19:16] John U Bacon: Turns to the team and speaks the first word spoken since I left 15 minutes earlier from the locker room and you said, I just wanna thank all the freshmen on the team for filling the water bottles and getting the pucks. You guys were great and that I thought was at our lowest moment. Chris, you thought about the guys who get the least amount of attention and that.
[00:19:38] John U Bacon: Will always be a walkaway moment for me as to why we do what we do and how it works at its best. So both you guys, for enjoying the team aspect and living that ahead of just your own stats, I will always be grateful. So any thoughts on that? I'm all ears.
[00:19:54] Chris Fragner: Well, you created that culture, you created that, that camaraderie. I mean, you did the best job of any coach I ever seen at getting everybody to move in the same direction you had. All the parents really seemed like they were united. They still get together to this day. You helped create some of the best friends that my mom and dad had.
[00:20:09] Chris Fragner: And you got like, like you mentioned, the taxi players and we had a big. Big group, including, all the volunteer coaches and stuff like that. And I I just think that the the message was al always extremely clear. I think everybody that was involved knew what we were doing and what we were trying to do.
[00:20:25] Chris Fragner: And you made it very special to play for that team. So, it was a blast. And I think that like for me, I remember that moment. I was just it, I was sad that it was over. I not because I, But it had, we won a state championship, it wouldn't have been much different.
[00:20:37] Chris Fragner: The lessons wouldn't have been every, any different. But I was just sad not to be able to go to the rink, and be able to be with that group of guys anymore. So, that it was a special group and you certainly were to blame for for the way the culture that you set forth.
[00:20:50] John U Bacon: Well, I appreciate that. I gotta say about the assistant coaches, they all came down at first as a favor to me, but they stayed because of you guys. You guys pulled them in, the players did. And they found it so gratifying to work with you guys and so much fun. It's a funny bunch also that never hurts that, that's why they kept on coming down.
[00:21:05] John U Bacon: It was not me. So, you're very generous with your comments, of course, Chris, but Pete, your thoughts.
[00:21:10] Pete Heeringa: Oh. Yeah, I think that I mean, I have a burning memory of that moment because I believe that I turned the puck over in our zone at the end of that contributor to the season. So I, yeah, I think I it's definitely like, like any high school athlete can appreciate, the big senior season coming to an end.
[00:21:31] Pete Heeringa: But as Chris said the friendships that you make, the lessons that you learn and the memories that you have from it, I think help. The experience kind of continue on as a as something you can always look back on positively. So, I think that, yeah, again, in the book, it, it talks about how it took a long time, but when you get everybody in the same mindset it, it becomes more like a family than a group of individuals.
[00:21:57] Pete Heeringa: So, that's definitely where we left it when the season ended.
[00:22:02] John U Bacon: Appreciate all that too. Of course. And a few points on that and your quotes, by the way. One of the great aspects for me about this book is that I was able to talk to the guys that we were leading during that time and get your quotes 20 years later as adults, which I don't know of any other book on leadership.
[00:22:17] John U Bacon: I've seen talks to those who were. Being led, if you will, and what kinda leaders they were and got their quotes. So one of my favorite quotes was from Chris about that, that if we'd won a state title, the lessons would not have been any, any different, would've been fun to win it. We were one of the teams that we thought could win it.
[00:22:32] John U Bacon: One of the two or three teams probably. But that night, of course, and you're too humbled to mention that, man, you had a great game and you had a great season. We're not there without you. Of course. And somebody recently, a few months ago sent me a photo of that final goal. And it turns out Chris was it Chris Neel?
[00:22:47] John U Bacon: Neel was the last name I recall that. The star from Salem, he might have been the state's leading scorer that year. He roofs a beautiful backhand off the water bottle and our very good goalie. That was a hell of a play no matter who's doing it, of course. So, it was great to get that photo. But that wasn't the point.
[00:23:02] John U Bacon: The point is we're all this in this together. We would not be there without you guys, of course. So any of those guys. So it would not have mattered who or how it happened. And when you lose a game, you can always pun to 20 or 30 things very easily. What mattered to me though, and what I was very gratified about, At the senior banquet, I was afraid that perhaps the early exit would color things or would talk about the losses, the wins in your senior speeches, which were particularly good that year.
[00:23:25] John U Bacon: You guys didn't talk about the wins or the losses, the streaks the accomplishments, the tournaments and all that stuff, nor the losses. It would talk about the. How great it felt to be in that locker room and the values that we stood for and the friendships that you made. So that made me feel good about the whole thing, and that's when you realized it was never really about the hockey.
[00:23:42] John U Bacon: So that's a lesson that I learned throughout this thing from you guys naturally. Moving on. You guys played a postgraduate year at Cal Academies for my mentor Al Clark. And you came back and now Michigan is a possibility to play for Michigan, which at the time was the number one team in the country with guys like Kevin Porter who would win the Hopi Baker Award.
[00:24:01] John U Bacon: Jack Johnson, who was drafted I think what, second or third overall by the N H L. And he is still playing in the N H L incredibly a loaded team. And yet you guys are good enough that you might get picked up as walk-ons. On the team, and then you guys have a tough choice to make and you made it differently.
[00:24:17] John U Bacon: So Chris, please tell us about your decision to try out for the team. And Pete, tell us about your decision to focus on academics.
[00:24:24] Chris Fragner: Yeah I I just wa you know, was growing up at Indian Arbor and playing hockey and having, season tickets and going to a lot of games, it was always a dream to play for them. And In the fact that it was a potential or a possibility. I I just didn't want to give up the dream.
[00:24:39] Chris Fragner: And I was really excited to be there, excited to to be at school. And I just remember feeling like, if there was any way to, to be on the team, it would it would be a dream come true. And so, yeah, I just didn't wanna give up that dream and And wanted to keep chasing it and, probably would've made him red cut me every year if he would've kept cutting me.
[00:24:57] John U Bacon: Well, you made the team of course, and played on the varsity for three years. Did very well there. And it was also for me, a relief to see that playing for Huron had not held you back in terms of your progress to Michigan. And you could play division one hockey at the highest possible level. So, that was cool.
[00:25:12] John U Bacon: And Pete, of course, you were faced with a similarly difficult decision, but made it differently.
[00:25:17] Pete Heeringa: Oh, sure. Yeah. I think like Chris said we both growing up in Ann Arbor, it's a dream to play there. And for Michigan I think both of our dads had season tickets. I can't even go into the rink without the band playing in my head. Just as all the players would go out on the ice, the band starts playing.
[00:25:35] Pete Heeringa: So, it's definitely a, a part of growing up in Ann Arbor being able to go to those games. So, I think, some of the things that, and in reflecting on it I know that the first year that we walked on I recall a conversation that I had with Red. He was always very friendly and very approachable and
[00:25:54] John U Bacon: And by the way, that's Red Berenson the head coach, the Red Branson, the head coach of the Michigan hockey team for 33 years. He's also been on the podcast, but that's who Peter's referring to here. So, sorry, go ahead.
[00:26:04] Pete Heeringa: Oh, sure. Yeah. He and we're, going around the ice at the beginning of practice one time, and I, I just took an opportunity to say to him, that I, wanted to be a part of the team and would do anything to be on the team. And he gave me a really, unexpected, but you know, Fantastic response, in hindsight.
[00:26:22] Pete Heeringa: But, he said that, if you, if we were to keep you even on, on the team, you wouldn't be able to play in games. And it would be tough for you to sort of get yourself into those games. And if you're not playing in the games, then you're not in game condition. And then that's gonna be basically, he was explaining on it from a really practical standpoint, why would be such an uphill climb?
[00:26:46] Pete Heeringa: And so, I respected the response from, now I'm an engineer. I can appreciate somebody being straight and giving me a response that I can analyze. So I, that was, that always stuck with me in terms of considering future opportunities on a lighter note I just told, I told my son this story the other day.
[00:27:06] Pete Heeringa: I remember stepping onto the ice was one of the first 10 times we were practicing with the team and
[00:27:13] John U Bacon: Oh, sorry, I just broke up for a second there. Can you repeat that? Telling your son, pick it up from there.
[00:27:17] Pete Heeringa: oh, yes. Yes. I remember I have, I told my son this story recently that stepping outta the ice, one of the first times we were practicing with the team, Chris and I stare across the ice and I see a player fire shot from the.
[00:27:32] Pete Heeringa: That I, it just completely took me took me back. I mean, I had never seen a player shoot a puck like that, and I almost just turned around and went right back in the locker and took my stuff off just like I had no, I got no place in being. So that player was Jeff Tamini and I think he was the first round NHL draft pick.
[00:27:50] Pete Heeringa: But, definitely seeing the talent level of somebody like that. And kind of being able to again, analyze my own skills versus that. And so, and ultimately I, I think I, I concluded that I couldn't give a hundred percent to my schoolwork. And pursuit of that while also giving a hundred percent.
[00:28:13] Pete Heeringa: And again, Red's message stuck with me that, a hundred percent or 110% still might not get you there. So, I think that ultimately I wanted to give a hundred percent to one thing or the other and so, the tough life choices. But that's one that I feel good with to this day.
[00:28:31] John U Bacon: Well, and you should, of course. And I was making sure that at the time when I was talking to you a fair amount of the time that you were not making that cause you're afraid of getting cuts. I didn't think you were going to get cut. I think you were gonna make it. I wanna make sure you're making it for the right reasons.
[00:28:42] John U Bacon: And you did. You absolutely did. Now, of course, you're a very successful engineer. I believe you're white vice president of your company. Engineering company, if I have that right. You got a beautiful wife and two kids. I'd say it worked out quite well and you made a good choice. And of course, Chris also made a good choice getting his bachelor's in business administration at Michigan.
[00:29:00] John U Bacon: Also married. He's got about 14 kids. Last I checked, but maybe it's only four. I can't recall, but I recall telling you, Chris, at the time, look, you're not gonna be an NHL player, but you are playing on the number one team in the country while getting your B A. Not many guys can say that, so make sure you use your hockey for something afterwards.
[00:29:17] John U Bacon: And now of course, what do you do? You invest the millions of your hockey teammates who are in the N H L and of course many others. So your career's also worked out quite well, and it's been fun to see you guys be so successful off the ice, as we say. And now you all come back for our annual barbecue here in the backyard, and I go to your weddings and whatnot, and your kids are older than my kid, of course Teddy is seven.
[00:29:37] John U Bacon: So you give me coaching and parenting advice and I have to take it so, That's how that one works, and I appreciate what you guys are doing for my kid and helping me as a parent. The student becomes the master and I appreciate that. So
[00:29:51] Chris Fragner: It's a blast getting to be able to be around each other, to get to see you in PD and fun to, that we're all in Ann Arbor and get to continue to see each other and and, ba bakes. I think that what you did for us is it's pretty easy for me to draw, Many lines back in my life, back to, what you did in high school for us and for both Pete and I, you encouraged us to do, have hockey, do something for us that it maybe couldn't for others.
[00:30:13] Chris Fragner: And I remember you very clearly encouraging us. Both Pete and I had gotten into Michigan out of. High school and were considering going directly to college. And you encouraged us to go to Culver to do a postgraduate year and we both got an opportunity to do that and learn how to fly and, play some more competitive hockey and take some more time.
[00:30:30] Chris Fragner: And it, it also, we went with two of our oth other best buddies Ross Gimble and Bob Chaps. And they continued their hockey careers after going to. To Culver. So, you certainly helped all of us in different ways continue to leverage hockey and it didn't necessarily have to mean in pursuit of playing professionally or making it a living.
[00:30:49] Chris Fragner: But that was something maybe I didn't understand is that, and I think that maybe people don't always see today as well, is that you can have hockey continue to be a big part of your life and it doesn't have to mean. Even playing division one or it can mean or by playing professionally it can mean, using the lessons.
[00:31:05] Chris Fragner: I think that you're a good example of that as well, of all the ways that you've made hockey work for you in your life. And and also that stuck with me. That was something that Red always preached, was preparing for life after hockey. And he says his favorite day in his life was the day after he won the Stanley Lee Cup two days after, and he was sitting in the.
[00:31:22] Chris Fragner: Dr. Brophy's class getting working on getting his B because he knew he'd be okay for life after hockey. And the old guy still doesn't know what that would look like cuz he is still in hockey, so.
[00:31:31] John U Bacon: At 83 years old. Yes. So, but he's still prepared for it. That's the main thing. He's prepared for that life after hockey at age 83. So, we'll wish him luck on that one. Well, I appreciate that, of course. And yes, my career far less than yours. But hockey is an amazing thing and it's not all or nothing.
[00:31:45] John U Bacon: There are a lot of ways to use whatever your skills are, whatever your passions are to fold those into what you're also doing. So been fun to watch you guys do that. Last question, who was your favorite teacher of all
[00:31:56] Chris Fragner: ahead, Pete.
[00:31:57] Pete Heeringa: Oh I think the one that, that jumps into my head first is Ms. Thompson from here on, she was our humanities teacher. Wonderful lady. Very friendly, soft spoken. I think. I can't recall what her specialty was, but I think it was English literature. But
[00:32:15] John U Bacon: It was, I had her also.
[00:32:17] Pete Heeringa: she was great. So I remember, I think our senior year of high school, I, Chris and I, we played several of our teammates played in men's league with you that you organized and I remember.
[00:32:31] Pete Heeringa: There was an incident in one of the games where I clipped a guy in the ear. His ear started bleeding and he came after me. It ended up sorting itself out, but the next day I went to school and I had like, the part of my was purple. And bruised, and I was wearing a hat, and I remember being next to a copy machine in the back offices and doing some printing.
[00:32:55] Pete Heeringa: And she came over and she says, hello, how you doing? Yeah. And somehow I must have had the hat on the top of my head, but she could see this purple bruising. And she's like, oh my gosh, you know what? What happened to you? And I said, oh, well, I'm embarrassed and she's my, she, I'm not sure if she'd ever been to a hockey game before and just this sweet lady and I said, oh, I've in this hockey game and I got into a fight and a guy punched me few times and she kind looked at me for a second and then she goes, that's awesome.
[00:33:24] Pete Heeringa: And it just totally took me back. And at that, I dunno if she was my favorite. Before that, she was definitely my favorite after.
[00:33:33] John U Bacon: You're too humble to say it. The other guy started the fight and he's known to be on the goon thuggish side in our league for years in the beer league. Of course, in the adult league for 10 years I've been battling the guy at least. And the other guy started it. You were not looking for a fight.
[00:33:46] John U Bacon: You're not provoking him, I don't think. But it must be said you kicked his ass, Pete. And we don't encourage fighting at Huron, but Vega's gonna, Vega's gonna start it. Go ahead and finish it. So, you might have gotten a few licks against you, of course, in that process, but you won that fight. So, here's Mrs.
[00:34:01] John U Bacon: Thompson, also my, one of my favorite teachers, of course. She goes, great. Was she easy? I already know the answer to that. When she was not easy. She had very high standards, but he did not wanna disappoint her. That was my impression of her. So, cool story there. Chris, your favorite
[00:34:15] Chris Fragner: I listened to your podcast and I don't feel like I've heard anybody say a college professor. Everybody seems to have elementary, middle school, high school, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna just try to change it up. I really enjoyed professor Brophy's class. He had a class that was a, like a really unique mixture where it had engineering students, MBA students, law school students, and you got paired up and you got put on a Like a real life startup company, and you had to try to help them overcome some hurdle and you would work together with people from all these different kind of facets of education that were all at the university as well.
[00:34:46] Chris Fragner: And so it, it was a it was my favorite because it was. Professor Brophy's way of teaching finance and entrepreneurship while using a real life scenario, an example. And it felt like we were doing something real as opposed to, hypothetical. And so I enjoyed that the most and I learned a lot from him.
[00:35:06] Chris Fragner: And also Mr. Henry helped teach that class as well. Mike Henry's dad. So that was a, that was my favorite. I enjoyed it the most. And I felt like professor Brophy was extremely relatable and connectable for being such a an incredible head of the business school that, that runs still to this day, some really impressive startup in venture capital symposiums and stuff.
[00:35:28] John U Bacon: This is the first time I've known any of the teachers. Somebody talked about, let alone both. So Madeline Thompson from high school, David Brophy is the professor in question. He's from Cape Breton, Nova Scotia, which is way up there, the other island of Nova Scotia. And he he played hockey at Ohio State, but got his MBA as and became one of the foremost experts in venture capital.
[00:35:46] John U Bacon: And he launched some careers and friends of mine as well. So, bro, here's to ya, Powell. And of course Bill Henry's, the guy you mentioned. That's Mike Henry's dad and Mike Henry's been on the podcast. So, great answers there. And of course, I already know that Brophy's not easy, but I also know that like Madeline Thompson, you don't wanna let the guy down.
[00:36:01] John U Bacon: And that's great power there. So you've only proven the point yet again guys, how much fun it was to coach you guys over those years, how great it's been, become peers and friends over the years. And now of course, you're my mentors since I'm raising a kid younger than yours and need help. And you've been great.
[00:36:17] John U Bacon: Your kids Bryce, by the way, and Matt especially, have been wonderful with the Teddy. I appreciate that. That's how the world turns, I guess. So I wanna thank you guys for being on the show. You are listening to Let Them Lead a podcast about the risks and rewards of leading today. My guests have been Pete Harring and Chris Fragner, captains of my third team at Anna Huron.
[00:36:36] John U Bacon: In the book, let Them Lead Unexpected Lessons in Leadership From America's Worst High School Hockey Team. Please subscribe to our podcast. Tell your friends, of course, and leave reviews. All those things are big helps, and we'll see you next time guys. Thank you.