If you have a TV you’ve probably seen former Federal Prosecutor Barb McQuade discussing the latest legal issue, almost daily. She’s also a professor at the University of Michigan Law School, and the author of the forthcoming book, “Attack from Within: How Disinformation is Sabotaging America. In this episode McQuade talks about her start in journalism, and what it taught her, her shift to the legal world, and her rise up the ranks to Federal Prosecutor. Along the way she has become an expert on criminal law, criminal procedure, national security, data privacy, and civil rights. From 2010 to 2017, McQuade served as the U.S attorney for the Eastern District of Michigan, the first woman to serve in her position. Here she talks about what she’s learned from her best bosses, including the virtually lost arts of civility and collaboration, the importance of volunteering for opportunities others decline, and how she and her husband have raised four adult children – plus the impact her high school counselor had on her, and her career. About our Host: For info about the book or this podcast please visit our website: http://www.letthemleadbybacon.com http://www.johnubacon.com You can connect with John via these platforms: https://www.facebook.com/johnubacon https://twitter.com/Johnubacon
If you have a TV you’ve probably seen former Federal Prosecutor Barb McQuade discussing the latest legal issue, almost daily. She’s also a professor at the University of Michigan Law School, and the author of the forthcoming book, “Attack from Within: How Disinformation is Sabotaging America.
In this episode McQuade talks about her start in journalism, and what it taught her, her shift to the legal world, and her rise up the ranks to Federal Prosecutor. Along the way she has become an expert on criminal law, criminal procedure, national security, data privacy, and civil rights. From 2010 to 2017, McQuade served as the U.S attorney for the Eastern District of Michigan, the first woman to serve in her position.
Here she talks about what she’s learned from her best bosses, including the virtually lost arts of civility and collaboration, the importance of volunteering for opportunities others decline, and how she and her husband have raised four adult children – plus the impact her high school counselor had on her, and her career.
About our Host:
For info about the book or this podcast please visit our website:
http://www.letthemleadbybacon.com
You can connect with John via these platforms:
https://www.facebook.com/johnubacon
https://twitter.com/Johnubacon
[00:00:00] Announcer: Let Them Lead is a podcast about the risks and rewards of leading today. Your host is John Bacon, author of the book Let Them Lead. Unexpected Lessons in Leadership From America's Worst High School Hockey Team, which led to this podcast on Let Them Lead. John talks to remarkable leaders from every field imaginable Automotive.
[00:00:22] Announcer: Computers, food service, media, education and athletics, just to name a few, and they share their hard won wisdom, amazing stories, and a few laughs. You'll also learn a few things you can use tomorrow and things you can think about the rest of your life. John always finishes with three takeaways and a discussion of their.
[00:00:41] Announcer: Favorite teacher in the words of John's fifth grade teacher, Mr. Puttick, it's fast, it's fun, and we get it done. So please join us for an entertaining and inspiring discussion. You'll be glad you did. You can subscribe to the podcast through Apple Podcast, Spotify, and Stitcher. Please feel free to leave your comments about any and all of the podcast episodes, and by all means, spread the word.
[00:01:05] Announcer: That's how the word gets spread. And now here's our latest episode of Let Them Lead, presented by your host. John U Bacon.
[00:01:14] John U Bacon: Hello and welcome back to another episode of the podcast. Let Them Lead about the risks and rewards of leading today. I'm John U Bacon, the author of Let Them Lead, unexpected Lessons in Leadership From America's Worst High School Hockey Team and my good friend Barb McQuaid, the famous media.
[00:01:30] John U Bacon: Darling in the days, certainly of the legal world, uh, is nice enough to put that on her bookshelf by the way, behind her head, on her many hits, of course, on M S N B C and across the uh, TV landscape. Barb, thank you for joining us today.
[00:01:43] Barbara McQuade: Oh, thanks John. Really glad to be with, uh, a fellow river rat. As a parent of some river rats, I feel an affinity for here on high school.
[00:01:49] John U Bacon: I. That probably needs to be explained. That is the Ann Arbor, Huron River Rats. We are the other high school, not the pioneers, of course, where Ken Burns, Bob Seger and Jim Harbaugh all attended. Uh, but you've uh, raised four river rat graduates as of now, I believe.
[00:02:03] Barbara McQuade: Correct? I have. And they were all, um, athletes there one way or another, uh, but did not have the success of your hockey team, I'm afraid.
[00:02:12] John U Bacon: No, but they had more success than, than I had as a hockey player. I know that because I, of course, scored no goals. That's still a record. Can't break that one. Barb, you cannot break zero. So there we go. But let's dive in. Of course, I'm, I'm willing to bet the vast majority of our listeners know who you are already.
[00:02:28] John U Bacon: I. Uh, but in case they don't, you are a professor of practice at the University of Michigan Law School, but frequently on M S N B C and across the media landscape, N P r, uh, the Washington Post, you name it, commenting on legal issues of the day as a former prosecutor. Um, and of course you are a co-host of Sisters in Law.
[00:02:46] John U Bacon: Tell us a bit about that, and then we'll dive into the background.
[00:02:49] Barbara McQuade: Yeah, thanks Sisters. In-Laws podcast. Uh, there are four of us who are lawyers and M S N B C legal analysts. Uh, a former US attorney, a former Watergate prosecutor, and a lawyer turned columnist for the Boston Globe. And, you know, we have a weekly podcast where we analyze the legal issues of the day and, you know, try to have some fun along the way.
[00:03:08] Barbara McQuade: So thanks for
[00:03:09] John U Bacon: asking. It is one of the rare, these are serious issues today. Democracy itself is in the balance, as you guys are not shy of saying correctly. Uh, but you do have a good time, and that is hard to mix those things, and it's a wonderful podcast. So by all means, everybody check that one out. But let's figure out how you got here, which is not the usual path I don't think.
[00:03:27] John U Bacon: Charles Corral, uh, the famous columnist, uh, and TV commentator on Fox, he had a great line. How do you do what? Uh, I do first graduate from medical school, which is of course not at all the sensible plan, but that's what he did. You of course were first Barbs, barbs. I recall reading that as a college student.
[00:03:45] John U Bacon: You're the one for the kinley. No, no. You, you had a following my friend and, and really a pioneer in hindsight. I didn't think about that at the time, but you must have, uh, a woman in that business in the mid eighties was unusual, uh, even at the col collegiate level. What did you learn about that? How do, how were you drawn to sports and sports writing, and how did you translate that eventually, of course, to the law?
[00:04:07] John U Bacon: Yeah. I
[00:04:07] Barbara McQuade: love my time at the Michigan Daily. You know, I, I often say my degree may say one thing, but my major was the Michigan Daily. I spent a lot of time there, probably far too much time there, but I loved it and I learned so much. Um, I, I've had a lifelong love of sports. I think it started. You know, as a kid watching Tiger Games with my dad and he'd show me how to read the box scores.
[00:04:27] Barbara McQuade: And I thought that was really cool. And so I, I love sports and, um, covered sports from my high school newspaper. And, um, on day one of my freshman year at Michigan, I walked into the offices of the Michigan Daily and said, I'd like to work here. And they said, great. Pull up a chair. We, we, we got a paper to edit tonight.
[00:04:44] Barbara McQuade: You can, you can work on it. And it was great. And so I got to cover sports. There, um, you know, you sort of work your way up through the ranks covering all kinds of miscellaneous sports your first couple years, and then eventually got to cover hockey and men's basketball and football. And Jim Harbaugh and I were classmates, so I, I got to, um, cover the football team his senior year, the 19 86, 87 season.
[00:05:07] Barbara McQuade: So it was a great time. Um, and it was, you know, in retrospect especially, Um, very unusual for women to be covering sports. I think there were three of us on the staff of the daily, a staff of maybe 30 or so, and I always felt pretty well treated by my colleagues there and by, um, most of the people I encountered.
[00:05:27] Barbara McQuade: In fact, in some ways, John, there was an advantage to being the token woman because you got noticed. So when there was a press conference after a football game, for example, if I raised my hand, Bohan Bechler would call on me. 'cause I was the girl and he knew my name, you know, because, Um, I sort of stood out in the crowd just as one of the few women in the room.
[00:05:46] Barbara McQuade: But from time to time you did come up against, you know, some sexism that I now think was kind of horrifying. People would, uh, you know, mock tease sort of in a joking way, but minimize the possibility that you could know anything about sports. Hmm. At the time I sort of shrugged and laughed at it. Now I would find it very offensive, but, you know, social norms change over time.
[00:06:04] Barbara McQuade: And uh, I would say mostly I was dealt with, with, with a great deal of respect. Sometimes just ignorance, you know, of people who didn't understand why it was I was interested. I remember one time. I wanted to, um, uh, follow my male colleague into the locker room at Notre Dame after a football game. And, uh, an older gentleman who was at the door said, oh, darling, you can't go in there.
[00:06:22] Barbara McQuade: And I said, why not? You just let, uh, you know, my, my friend in here. He said, well, they're all wearing their birthday suits. You can't go in there. And so I sort of chuckled and, uh, allowed my male colleague to collect the quotes while I focused on working on something else. But, uh, you know, I think the world has become more enlightened, uh, today.
[00:06:40] Barbara McQuade: And, uh, I was, You know, grateful to have, uh, an opportunity to do what I did. I'm grateful for the women who came before me so that I could do that.
[00:06:47] John U Bacon: Well, and of course the women who came after you are also grateful. One who came before you is Robin Wright. Mm-hmm. Who's probably a friend of yours now. The New Yorker.
[00:06:54] John U Bacon: That's right. Uh, she covered the team in 1969 for the Michigan Daily when Bo Schembechler was the first year coach. And at first she could not believe there's a woman on the beat. And then he treated her very nicely and they became very good friends. So, uh, Beau came around, it must be said.
[00:07:07] Barbara McQuade: Yeah, well I think a great credit to Robin for the great work that she did because I think when you have pioneers like that who do such a good job and build those relationships, the rest of us, uh, ride their coattails.
[00:07:18] John U Bacon: So I'm grateful to her. Well, others have as well, of course written yours. You also learned how to be a brave, pioneer and fear. It can't last too long. In your world, of course. How did you pick the law? I know you wanted to be a sports writer. Did you wanna be a lawyer or did that come across later?
[00:07:33] Barbara McQuade: You know, I always had this inkling, uh, of, of the law that I wanted to do that.
[00:07:37] Barbara McQuade: And I think it came from having a, an early. Uh, aversion to this idea of discrimination. You know, as a girl who loves sports, um, I always wanted to play sports and I remember being quite crushed to learn that my dream of being the shortstop for the Detroit Tigers would never come true because of my gender.
[00:07:55] Barbara McQuade: You know, nevermind John. My lack of talent that, you know, you don't think about that when you're a kid. But I remember thinking about the injustice of it all and then I remember saying like, wow, I'll run for president. Um, no, you can't do that either. Or I'll be an astronaut. No, that's not for girls. Um, I.
[00:08:08] Barbara McQuade: And really thinking about, uh, this is not the America I learned about in school. We talk about equality and justice and anybody can do anything and follow their dreams. And so I, I always had this sort of crusading idea about seeking justice and I think that was where my interest in the law came in. But I was working for a paper in Rochester, New York after my graduation from college.
[00:08:29] Barbara McQuade: And I was writing, you know, sports, minor sports, doing copy editing. Could have been quite happy doing that for a while, I think. But, um, I thought that if I'm ever gonna go to law school, I probably should do it now while I'm young and unattached and I could write about the law. Maybe that's something I will do.
[00:08:45] Barbara McQuade: I will combine my love of journalism and, and law in some way. Uh, so I went to law school, loved it, and uh, you know, found that practicing law was something I very much wanted to do. I.
[00:08:56] John U Bacon: Uh, cool. Turn, cool transition. I did not know that, by the way, about your background. Uh, while you were doing that, I was teaching the LSAT and the GMAT for Stanley Kaplan and one of my frequent questions with my students near the end was about their essay.
[00:09:09] John U Bacon: And I said, the first question you need to answer in your essay for law school admissions is, why do you want to do this? And I was rather appalled that very few actually knew why they wanted to do this. What they were was history majors like me, pre unemployment as my friends called it. And what else you gonna do, but go to law school basically.
[00:09:26] John U Bacon: So they're looking for a job, but you're looking for a mission. And that is a fundamental difference as far as your motivation goes. Um, that has clearly driven you to this day.
[00:09:35] Barbara McQuade: I think so. You know, the other thing that was a very formative experience for me was the Watergate hearings. I am of you, you and I are.
[00:09:41] Barbara McQuade: Of similar. Similar vintage. I'm familiar, yes. Yeah, we're with similar vintage, so I'm sure you remember that. I mean, it was really kind of one of my first memories of the news. You know, being aware of what was in the news. 'cause I would see the newspaper or the Detroit News would be delivered to my family home every afternoon and every day.
[00:09:56] Barbara McQuade: The headline was about Watergate, Watergate, Watergate. And I didn't quite understand what it was. I just kind of knew that it was something the president had done that was bad. So I remember asking my mom one day, um, Hey mom, what's Watergate? And she said, correctly, oh, well it's an office complex. And that just, that really confused me, like, alright, I'm too young to understand this because I don't understand how that could have anything to do with the president resigning.
[00:10:18] Barbara McQuade: But I watched those hearings and I remember feeling, again, just sort of this. Uh, um, you know, rage that the president, who is I so respected, the office of the presidency, could do something to abuse the trust of the people. Um, that, uh, you know, I knew about the, the, the tapes and lying about the tapes, um, so much that he had to resign, that.
[00:10:38] Barbara McQuade: I also developed this idea of, you know, fighting corruption. One of the. Great books that combines this idea of fighting corruption and journalism is all the president's men. And I, I read that book and loved it and, you know, really found the idea of Woodward and Bernstein to be very glamorous. So I think there's, there's a germ of a connection there between this, uh, you know, fighting abuse of power, uh, and, and being a journalist, a gatekeeper, a watchdog of society that kind of blend themselves into what motivates me.
[00:11:06] John U Bacon: That is awesome. And that certainly explains the connection. The drive you've had as a sports writer is now of course, uh, on tv, talking about the law. Uh, you went, uh, to Michigan Law School. What did you learn there that has stayed with you beyond the law itself? Of course. Uh, and how did you pick private practice out of law school?
[00:11:22] John U Bacon: I.
[00:11:23] Barbara McQuade: Yeah, I, I think the thing that, uh, I learned most in law school, I was a little bit daunted going into law school. The idea that, man, I don't know if I can do this. There's all these really smart people and working on legal projects sounds really hard. I don't know if I can do this. And I think it was a really confidence growing experience because, you know, you start at the beginning of the year and they're speaking all this, you know, Latin terminology and it all sounds so hard, but, um, It's presented in this Socratic method that is used in law school that really is, you know, this, this will sound kind of esoteric, but it is a journey of self-learning.
[00:11:59] Barbara McQuade: Um, I always thought it was because the professors were too lazy to tell us the answers. They just wanted to ask a bunch of questions. But that's the idea of the way law school is taught, because in life, uh, as a lawyer and really as a person, people don't spoon feed you the answers to any problem. You know, you're presented with kind of a crazy set of facts and what you try to do.
[00:12:18] Barbara McQuade: Is put a a, an analytical framework around it to try to reach some conclusions. You know, framing the problem is often the biggest challenge as a lawyer and as a person. And then thinking through, alright, what, what laws might apply here? To around this thing. What are the issues? What are the possible claims?
[00:12:38] Barbara McQuade: What are the possible defenses? And so learning how to, you know, I guess they call it learning how to think like a lawyer, um, has been incredibly valuable to me, both as a lawyer and I think as like a person. You know, your kid comes home and tells you a hundred things about what ha. What was wrong with their day?
[00:12:53] Barbara McQuade: And you're like, okay, let's, let's calm down here now. Okay. The fact that your lunch was called probably not our biggest problem, the fact that you failed your math test, that's something we should talk about. So I think that that ability to sort of frame and think analytically is something that I have taken from my law school experience to help me as a lawyer and as a person.
[00:13:12] John U Bacon: I love it. That, of course, has served you very well in a lot of capacities, but one of them, of course, is that butts along. For those who are not from Michigan, that is a big time law firm. Um, that of course pays you very well. It also, uh, requires some very serious hours to say the least. I always loved my friends who got outta Michigan Law School and said, oh yeah, I'm making six figures.
[00:13:30] John U Bacon: Yes. And you have to work 80 hours a week. Yeah.
[00:13:33] Barbara McQuade: Can.
[00:13:33] John U Bacon: Pennies per hour. Yeah, exactly right. It's not a charity, it turns out. So people learn that one pretty quickly. What did you learn from private practice? What did you like about it and why did you decide to leave that and the money that goes with it? Uh, for the prosecutor's office?
[00:13:48] Barbara McQuade: Yeah. Uh, you know, uh, my, uh, my, my very first job out of law school was a law clerk for a federal judge. Uh, Bernard Friedman to this day, is a wonderful mentor. And then after that, uh, you know, that was a two year term. After that, I went over to the. The firm of buts along where I worked for about five years.
[00:14:02] Barbara McQuade: And both of those were incredible experiences and, and I will say I learned from Judge Friedman, um, and then reinforced at buts along the importance of civility in the practice of law. You know, so often I think we have this image of lawyers from TV and. You know, in some, in some lawyers who do this whole scorched earth thing where they're just, you know, mean and argumentative and pounding the table.
[00:14:24] Barbara McQuade: And what I learned from Judge Friedman watching him, he was really a master at settling civil cases where one party had sued another and they were, you know, at, at a standstill and they wanted to go to trial and he would sit with them, bring them in. Put them in separate rooms and just listen to them.
[00:14:42] Barbara McQuade: And, uh, so often in resolving a case, it isn't about, you know, trickery or manipulation, uh, hiding the ball. It's really about an honest exchange of who needs what, um, to resolve a case. And so often there's just personal factors at issue. People are feeling, um, Hurt or offended or undervalued, uh, in some way.
[00:15:06] Barbara McQuade: Or cheated. Or betrayed. And they just want a chance to kind of vent that and have someone acknowledge that. And I think by giving people the respect and the patience and listening to all of that, he became the master at resolving cases. I can remember one where a, um, A small toy company had, um, made knockoffs of a very, um, prominent, uh, sports vehicle that was in the market.
[00:15:30] Barbara McQuade: And so the automaker, one of the, one of the big three, sued them and said, you're violating our trademark with your little toys. And they were, uh, and so they wanted them to cease and desist. Um, They didn't even want any money, but they also wanted them to destroy all the toys. And the toy maker said, oh man, we made all these toys.
[00:15:49] Barbara McQuade: These toys bring joy to children. We don't wanna destroy them. We get it. We'll stop making them. We won't take any more profits, but we don't wanna destroy the toys. And this was like, no, this is, this is a deal breaker. Absolutely not. And you know, by talking with both parties, judge Friedman worked out a deal where they were going to, Donate all of these toys to children's hospitals across the country with a joint press release, uh, where both parties were going to take credit for this donation and they both loved it.
[00:16:16] Barbara McQuade: So it was, um, by talking with the parties about what was important to them, he was able to reach this win-win solution. And then it butts along, you know, same. One of the things I really liked about Butts Long, I had a mentor there named Ed Cronk, who later got an award for civility, which is no surprise.
[00:16:32] Barbara McQuade: But the, the secret to Ed Croc's success again, was that he treated people with respect, dignity was upfront about what his client's needs were, and he was able to, Manage a very successful, uh, highly complex litigation practice by being a nice guy. And so, um, I have tried, I have not always succeeded, but I have tried to replicate what I learned from Judge Friedman and from Ed Cronk in my own practice of law.
[00:16:59] Barbara McQuade: I.
[00:17:00] John U Bacon: It is greatly reassuring to hear that being a nice guy does not automatically mean that you finish last, because these days, of course, civility on Twitter, as we both know, is in short supply. Uh, it's a screaming, yelling place oftentimes. Um, and the ability to, to disagree with without being disagreeable is, uh, wonderful.
[00:17:17] John U Bacon: And I love your examples by the way, the, the toy, I can probably guess the car in question I think, but nonetheless, um, the toy in question, that's a great solution of. Course from Judge Friedman, uh, a rare skill that, and what I've often found when people are angry, especially men, frankly, uh, you peel it back and you'll find somewhere underneath there is hurt.
[00:17:35] John U Bacon: Mm-hmm. Um, their feelings were hurt. But in our culture, of course, I'm not gonna cry very often, and public is not a, not generally accepted, I'll get angry. Um, so when someone is that angry, okay, find out what makes them so angry, and usually you find the hurt of, in this case, destroying the toys. Um, that's your, yeah.
[00:17:53] John U Bacon: That's their life's work. So I love those examples. Great mentors, of course, you've already answered a lot of my questions in advance. In 2010, president Obama, uh, appoints you, US attorney for the Eastern District of Michigan, the first woman to serve in that position. Now you're again a pioneer of course.
[00:18:10] John U Bacon: Uh, what did you learn from that and how did you leave butts along for that position? Now that's a hell of a position. It's not a small thing, uh, but I'm sure it's less money.
[00:18:18] Barbara McQuade: Uh, yes. Um, you know, I think the thing that motivated me, I first became an assistant US attorney. I worked in the office for 12 years as an assistant prosecuting cases, but it, it really went back to that idea that I wanted to have a positive impact on my community, even if only a modest one.
[00:18:34] Barbara McQuade: Of, you know, sort of fighting injustice and protecting, um, people who were more vulnerable in our community. You know, I had a voice, I had skills that I could use to advocate just for, uh, a better quality of life for the people of, of our community. And so I wanted to use my skills for that. I, you know, I really enjoyed.
[00:18:51] Barbara McQuade: Private practice. I really enjoyed working for real clients. I had wonderful colleagues there. But, um, you know, at the end of the day, most of the time they were squabbles about money. And I wanted to do something that I thought might have a little more direct impact on our community. And so I went over to the US Attorney's office and I loved it.
[00:19:07] Barbara McQuade: I handled, you know, all kinds of interesting cases, bank robberies, and um, uh, Counterfeit currency cases, I mean, all kinds of really interesting things. After nine 11, I moved into the national security space and I prosecuted cases of, uh, terrorism and threats, foreign agents export violations. Fascinating work.
[00:19:26] Barbara McQuade: Um, and then when President Obama was elected, um, the senators in Michigan put forth a, uh, solicitation for candidates to, uh, submit applications for US attorney. And I put my name in. You know, sometimes people say, well, I was asked to do this thing, like nobody asks like they're. You, you gotta, you gotta raise your hand.
[00:19:44] Barbara McQuade: So, you know, don't, don't wait to be tapped on the shoulder. So I submitted an application and went through the process and was fortunate enough to be selected. Um, and wow, what a, what a tremendous honor to lead the office I had worked in for 12 years. I did that throughout the Obama administration, so eight years and um, and just loved it.
[00:20:03] Barbara McQuade: And, you know, leading your colleagues can be challenging, but you know, in some ways it's a job that's so easy because the people who are attracted to the work of the US Attorney's Office are really dedicated public servants who are self-starters. So, you know, one secret to managing people is pick good people to manage.
[00:20:18] Barbara McQuade: And, uh, some of it takes care of itself. But I, I think one thing that I did, Um, learn in that experience that is very consistent with some of the lessons in your book, John, which I loved by the way, let Them Lead. Um, is this idea of engaging with the people that you are leading. Um, nobody in this day and age wants to be dictated to.
[00:20:38] Barbara McQuade: Um, people do not work at their best when they receive orders and are told to simply comply with them, and in fact, If you wanna figure out how to do the work, the best, uh, the best way to figure that out is to ask the people doing the work. And so, um, I, I really spent a lot of time talking with people before we would, uh, charge a case before we would implement a new policy, before we would make management decisions.
[00:21:03] Barbara McQuade: And you know, there's an African proverb that says something like, if you want to go faster, go alone. If you want to go farther, go together. And that really, um, uh, made a lot of sense in, in working at the US Attorney's Office. Uh, I found that when we collaborated on cases and we got, you know, sat around and did a little round table review of them, we often came up with ideas that made the case stronger.
[00:21:27] Barbara McQuade: Um, when I was making a management decision, I would talk with the affected group and get their input and they often had. Really great ideas that I hadn't thought about before. So in addition to getting the benefit of all those ideas, I think that when I ultimately made a decision, even if it was not the decision that pleased everybody, there was more buy-in because people felt like, okay, well I had an opportunity to be heard.
[00:21:47] Barbara McQuade: Um, you know, the decision isn't exactly the one that I advocated for, but I get it. And, uh, I'm, you know, willing to accept that and move on. So I think that idea of. You know, empowering the people you work with to be part of the solution, um, is a very effective, I found to be an effective way to lead, at least at the US Attorney's office, where, as I said, um, people are amazing to begin with, so it doesn't take a whole lot to lead them.
[00:22:10] John U Bacon: Love that approach, of course, as you might know. But the key to that, I think, uh, is simply asking them. Uh, it is not faster undeniably, but your background as a sports reporter of course, helps here. Uh, I'm always amazed by the way the rookie sports writers will get into the locker room and tell Steve Eisman what happened tonight.
[00:22:27] John U Bacon: That might not be your best idea because Steve Eisman is a very good hockey player. He was there, he played the game, and he might be able to tell you. What happened? Uh, so I'd go with that approach as a rule. And likewise, by the way, in the prosecution business, when I talk to people about sales, in sales, the easiest thing to do is ask the customer what they want.
[00:22:43] John U Bacon: It's like cheating. They will tell you if they care about safety, talk about safety. They care about performance, talk about performance. Uh, there's no point telling them what the car is about. Ask them what they want. Um, and likewise, by the way, in your prosecutor's office, this worked out very well for you.
[00:22:57] John U Bacon: Obviously it might not been the fastest way as you point out. The African proverb is certainly on point. Um, but you get the buy-in and without that trust, by the way, your job at that level, it's gotta be very hard because these are smart. I. Strong, opinionated people and as friends they're probably wonderful and as enemies I bet it's probably overrated.
[00:23:17] Barbara McQuade: Yeah, well, luckily I didn't have to experience that, but uh, yeah, as you say, these are, uh, people with not just strong views, but well established views, well, well informed views. And so, uh, you know, why would anyone reject the value of that information, as you say, um, if you ask people what's happening, they'll tell you and they've got.
[00:23:33] Barbara McQuade: Probably better perspective on it than you do. It
[00:23:36] John U Bacon: worked out very well. Jim Card's, a mutual friend of ours. He used to be the NBER News columnist. Mm-hmm. Uh, turned federal prosecutor himself, uh, under you, I believe
[00:23:43] Barbara McQuade: at the, uh, yeah. He was smart enough to hire him and he is really thrived there.
[00:23:47] John U Bacon: He has, he and I talk for an hour about every week or two.
[00:23:49] John U Bacon: 'cause I just can't get enough of this stuff these days. There's a lot going on. It's all off the record naturally. But, uh, nonetheless. So you left there in 2017 to return to your alma mater at Michigan Law School. That had to be a tough decision in many ways. Uh, and yet you've already lived about three lives by now.
[00:24:04] John U Bacon: So what were the pros and cons of leaving the federal prosecutor's office for law school? Well,
[00:24:09] Barbara McQuade: president Trump made it very easy for me. He fired me, so I, I didn't have to, I didn't have to worry too much about staying. I, you know, after he was elected, I, I, I thought, you know, maybe I'll stay. Um, I, I didn't seek the job for political reasons.
[00:24:21] Barbara McQuade: I sought the job because I wanted to. To do the work. Uh, it's a nonpartisan job. It gets appointed by the president who is, you know, partisan. But, um, I thought I could continue to do this work, but he had other ideas. So he fired all the US attorneys in March of 2010. And so, um, the law school, you know, came to me and asked if I would be interested in serving as a professor from practice.
[00:24:42] Barbara McQuade: It's a relatively new category that Michigan Law School has, and you'll see it around a number of law schools these days. And the idea is, you know, we have all of these, uh, top research scholars who have devoted their lives. I. To studying the law, and they have a very deep understanding of their subject area.
[00:24:58] Barbara McQuade: But it might be nice to compliment those scholars with some people who've been practicing law, who can bring in some of the practical aspects that they can, you know, share with our students, um, as well. And so, uh, that pitch was very attractive to me when I was leaving. I, I kind of thought about some of the different opportunities and, um, I put together, uh, my own little matrix.
[00:25:18] Barbara McQuade: John, I'm such a, a geek. I, uh, I, I kind of created this little balancing thing and I put up at the top. You know, kinda what the job opportunities were. I had some opportunities for law firms and in-house at some corporations, uh, and then the law school opportunity, and then a list of, you know, the, the factors.
[00:25:34] Barbara McQuade: Like, you know, what's the pay, what are the hours, um, what's, you know, is the, will the work be challenging? Will the work be interesting? Um, and. And then I waited all of those things by what mattered most to me. Um, and the thing that really mattered most to me was the ability to have a positive impact. You know, I'm at a stage in my career now where my, you know, my kids are mostly through college and, um, maximizing, uh, Pay is not, uh, my top priority.
[00:26:00] Barbara McQuade: And so having a positive impact really mattered a lot. And I thought the place where I could do that would be at Michigan Law School. You know, working with these incredibly talented young legal minds who wanna go out in the world. And if I could share with them some of the lessons I've learned from my years in practice, I couldn't think of anything more impactful than that.
[00:26:15] John U Bacon: And it's clearly worked out well for you. And just to clear the record, it was uh, March of 2017, I'm guessing. Oh, did I misstate the year? It is March of 2010, which that's probably when you became of course,
[00:26:25] Barbara McQuade: correct. 2017. You're absolutely right.
[00:26:27] John U Bacon: Sorry. Good answer there. Of course, Steve, it's all a blur. You have to tell me about that, by the way.
[00:26:32] John U Bacon: Yes. A friend of mine used the phrase, I'm of the age and stage and said, I know exactly where you are. And, uh, I'm of the age. By the way, your kids are outta college, most of them. My kid is seven years old and my only goal these days, Barb, is that when I pick 'em up from school, nobody says, Hey, Teddy, your grandpa's here.
[00:26:47] John U Bacon: So yeah, that's where I am. But, uh, that said, of course, we're, looks like you're doing all right for yourself. We're, we're getting there. Uh, the media career, this is like your fourth career. Now we're talking about, uh, you essentially launched in 2017 when you started at Michigan Law School. It takes some bravery, take some vision, take some initiation, of course, initiative.
[00:27:05] John U Bacon: Sorry, to make all that happen. What was your mindset in starting your media career along those lines, and was it similar to you being an 18 year old freshman at the University of Michigan?
[00:27:17] Barbara McQuade: Yeah, that's so interesting. Well, I've, I've always had this love for writing. It has, you know, carried with me throughout, even when I was US Attorney, I would issue this little, you know, monthly report to the district, a little, you know, newsletter that I would send out about what we've been working on at the office, uh, as a district report.
[00:27:32] Barbara McQuade: Um, and so I really still enjoyed that. And, and actually what, what really started it is I was, um, At orientation for my first day at the University of Michigan in May of 2017, when I got a call from M S N B C, they were looking for a former prosecutor to come on, um, who had a background in national security to provide legal analysis about a hearing that was occurring that day, uh, where former acting Attorney General Sally Yates was testifying about the matter involving, you know, the Russia investigation and Mike Flynn's role in that, the National Security Advisor.
[00:28:04] Barbara McQuade: Um, And I said, yeah, I think I could do that. I, I know this area of the law and uh, I think I could do that. So I went on that night, uh, on an MNS N B C program. And then, you know, sometimes dumb luck just sort of falls your way as it did in this case. The very next day, uh, president Trump fired F B I, director Jim Comey.
[00:28:23] Barbara McQuade: Uh, and that was a big news story and people were again, sort of interested in this idea of law D O J National Security, which is kind of in my wheelhouse. And so, um, I got a call from the Rachel Matto Show to go on and talk about that, which I did. And then from there I just started getting, you know, more calls and then I got solicitations to write, you know, like in the Washington Post and the New York Times.
[00:28:45] Barbara McQuade: And then, you know, kind of one thing leads to another, uh, people would reach out to me for comment on. News stories. Uh, and you know, from that, uh, I began writing some op-eds, mostly in national security publications. There's one called Lawfare, another called Just Security about National Security Matters in the news.
[00:29:02] Barbara McQuade: But it's interesting how these things all sort of complement each other, and I find them to be kind of a, an extension of what I teach at, uh, the, at the law school. You know, I try very hard in my analysis not to give opinions, but to give explanations, uh, to sort of. Help people understand the law so that they can draw their own conclusions.
[00:29:23] Barbara McQuade: You know, when, uh, there might be a report that the f b I rated some office, and what I try to explain is no, they executed a search warrant, which means that a judge found probable cause to believe that evidence of a crime would be found at that location. And from that you can draw your own conclusion.
[00:29:37] Barbara McQuade: And so that has been kind of my, my goal is, again, just in trying to have an impact, we're providing more information to people so that they can draw their own conclusions.
[00:29:46] John U Bacon: Speaking of information, you are now working on a book you pour Soul. Uh, how is that going? What is the book about and when
[00:29:51] Barbara McQuade: does it come out?
[00:29:52] Barbara McQuade: It's going great and, um, it, it has been hard work, I will say that, but it's been a labor of love. And John, I had the good fortune of connecting with you about this early on, and you gave me such good advice. Which I would've absolutely fallen into this trap, if not for your good advice, which was make sure your first draft is really a first draft.
[00:30:10] Barbara McQuade: And don't try to make it perfect 'cause you'll never get past chapter one. And the rest of the chapters will all be, uh, far less, uh, of far less quality because you won't have time to spend the same time on them. So don't, don't put in all your citations, don't put in all your examples, just like get it all done on paper and then go back.
[00:30:27] Barbara McQuade: And that was such good advice. So I did that. I've actually submitted a draft. Um, To the publisher and so they have it now. I've been working on it for a little over a year, and the book will come out in February of 2024. It's amazing how long this process takes between all of the edits and things, but the publisher has it now.
[00:30:45] Barbara McQuade: They're gonna do another round for copy editing, and then I'll have another chance to just, uh, Take a quick look at that and I'll tell you what the biggest challenge has been, just staying, uh, ahead of the news cycle. Um, I thought I was done about a week ago, and then Trump got indicted. So I said, can I have that back?
[00:31:01] Barbara McQuade: I have, I have some changes I need to make. So I got that in. Um, but you know, I think, you know, certainly by February, far more is gonna happen. Um, I do have one last shot in September to do a little epilogue where I can add a little update. But, uh, but that is, that has definitely been a, a challenge. But I thank you for the good advice and I've gotten advice from other good people along the way.
[00:31:20] Barbara McQuade: Um, and so it's been fun to, to learn. It's always fun to try new things and challenge yourself. I know when I graduated from law school, our dean then, uh, Lee Bollinger, uh, uh, gave us this advice in his commencement address to us. He said, um, You know, you guys are all good at a lot of things. Uh, you've had academic success to be sure if you're here.
[00:31:39] Barbara McQuade: I challenge you to try things you're not good at. Um, it's, it's very humbling. It's very useful. You can learn a new skill and it gives you a perspective of what, you know, people deal with every day, all day. And so I've tried to, you know, take on new challenges from time to time. And certainly writing a book was a new challenge, but I found it to be, you know, really gratifying despite the hours of work, I made space for it by, um, Working every day from six to 9:00 AM I read that, uh, Toni Morrison did that before her kids got up.
[00:32:07] Barbara McQuade: She got up, she got up even earlier than that. But I found that by doing that, I gave myself three hours every day to work on it. And then when it was done, it was done and it was not hanging over my head. So that, that formula worked pretty well for me until I got up to deadlines and then I had to work a little longer.
[00:32:21] Barbara McQuade: But, uh, mostly it was a good way to approach the work.
[00:32:24] John U Bacon: The beauty part there, of course, having read a lot of your writing, is that you do not write like a lawyer. And that's a big compliment. Trust me, uh, law school can destroy your writing ability. We've seen that happen before. What is the title of the book?
[00:32:35] John U Bacon: I.
[00:32:36] Barbara McQuade: It's called Attack from Within, how disinformation is Sabotaging America. And so I talk a little bit about, um, you know, all of the tactics. We see many of them online with, you know, people trying to, um, use. Spin and manipulation and lies to, uh, harm our democracy, to harm our national security and to harm the rule of law.
[00:33:01] Barbara McQuade: And then I also include some proposed solutions. So it's not all doom and
[00:33:03] John U Bacon: gloom. I, that's part of your shtick, I believe. It's not really a shtick. Of course you are. Clear-eyed and yet very positive at the same time. It's hard to be both naturally, but that's, I think, one reason why they love having you on TV naturally.
[00:33:16] John U Bacon: The, uh, the book of course comes out in February of 2024, and the advice on first drafts people is true. Uh, what I learned the hard way repeatedly is it turns out everybody's first draft stinks. And as I say to my students at Michigan, Everyone's first draft stinks. Your problem is you just turned yours in and here's a c.
[00:33:36] John U Bacon: If you wanna revise it, come back and see me. I recommend it. But, uh, everyone's first draft stinks. Don't try to make it otherwise. It is impossible to get around. I once read a first draft of the Great Gaby, one of the Oh, wow. Greatest novels. Yeah. They had it in Princeton when I was living out there for a little while, asked Fitzgerald, and it turns out one of the.
[00:33:53] John U Bacon: Purest novels ever in the English language, first draft stunk. And I, once I read 10 pages, I realized, okay, we're good. We got this. So, uh, that made me feel a lot better on that one. Uh, your family, of course. We're getting near the end here. How do you do all this? I. With a husband. You've been married the entire time, uh, four kids.
[00:34:12] John U Bacon: The argument that you can't have it all, you can't have it all, but you can certainly have a great career and a great family at the same time. You've done this. Yeah.
[00:34:19] Barbara McQuade: Well, in fact, um, you know, having a, uh, a spouse who is incredibly supportive is the secret to any success I've had. I have a husband, Dan Hurley, who is amazing.
[00:34:29] Barbara McQuade: Um, he doesn't, you know, sometimes you hear parents say, I help with the kids. I know your, your relationship with Teddy is anything but you are, uh, a, a full. 100% parent to him. And, and my husband has been the same a hundred percent partner. He's my greatest supporter and cheerleader. Um, and he's been a full partner with our kids.
[00:34:46] Barbara McQuade: You know, he, he, when I was tied up, uh, or otherwise, he took them to the doctor's appointments. And, you know, one of the things that I remember him sharing with me early on was this, that's so important is not only. Was it important to take them to the doctor's appointments, but to also carry the mental load of paying attention to when they needed to go to the doctor's appointment and when they needed to go to the dentist.
[00:35:09] Barbara McQuade: You know, we've got four kids. There's just all that, you know, mental work that goes on to managing all the needs of them. And so, um, we absolutely shared in that if anything, you know, don't tell him this, but he did far more of a load than I did. And so, um, you know, having a good partner. Is really the secret of success in
[00:35:28] John U Bacon: life.
[00:35:28] John U Bacon: But I like the idea of course, and this is important now 'cause even last week somebody came out and said to a would-be female surgeon, uh, that you cannot do both. You cannot have a great family and a surgeon. And we know that to be false these days. Medical school is more than half women. Law schools are more than half women.
[00:35:45] John U Bacon: It's just flatly false. And uh, so it's good to have that counter there. By the way, four kids. Look, one kid is cheating four kids, you get medals. That's, uh, that's a whole different category to say the least. So I'm very impressed by that. I always like to boil down my guest comments, thanks to my chicken scratch about three pages of these notes with you, Barb.
[00:36:02] John U Bacon: So that's my old, uh, history major coming out. Uh, what I'm taking away here is a lot of things. Uh, one is you gotta raise your hand. Don't be afraid. When in doubt, say yes, and that's whether you are a freshman going to the Michigan Daily when they're calling you that night. For M Ss N B C, you said yes.
[00:36:19] John U Bacon: Not knowing what the whole thing entailed. Uh, when in doubt say yes and figure, figure it out as you go along, but don't be afraid to say yes. Don't let the doubt stop you. Uh, two. Civility. Civility is not dead and it is not counter to getting your work done and achieving. You don't hear that very often these days.
[00:36:34] John U Bacon: That to me is actually a bold statement in 2023. Uh, being a nice guy does not mean you're gonna finish last. I like that a lot. And then, of course, your African proverb, if you wanna go fast, go solo. If you wanna go far, go together. That is also often lost. That is certainly my philosophy and let them lead.
[00:36:51] John U Bacon: It's a whole lot more fun that way. As you've discovered with your husband, Dan and your four kids, uh, this has been fantastic. Last question. Who was your favorite teacher? I.
[00:37:02] Barbara McQuade: Oh, such a good question. You know, I'm gonna cheat a little bit and go with a counselor, a high school counselor that I had, uh, her name is, uh, Mrs.
[00:37:10] Barbara McQuade: Adrian Allard. And the thing about Mrs. Allard that was so impactful for me, I. Was that she was just so positive. She so believed in me. Now, she probably said this to all the kids, but she made me think that I was the best student who'd ever gone through Sterling Heights High School. That the, the sky was the limit that I could do anything I wanted to do, that she was in awe of it all.
[00:37:32] Barbara McQuade: I'm sure as soon as I left the room, she told the next kid the same thing. But when a teacher tells you that somebody who is, you know, decades older than you are, you believe it. You believe it yourself. And so she really instilled in me some confidence that I think helped me to say yes when those opportunities, uh, came my way.
[00:37:49] Barbara McQuade: You know, sometimes you're scared to do these things. And you feel a little intimidated, uh, a little self-conscious, but knowing that other people believe in you can be very empowering. So Mrs. Allard is my answer.
[00:37:58] John U Bacon: I love that. Adrianne Allard. I hope she's seen your success. By the way, she must be deeply gratified to hear that her advice actually paid off.
[00:38:06] Barbara McQuade: Yeah, she does. From, from time to time, she'll send me a little note by email, which is
[00:38:09] John U Bacon: wonderful. I love that I've asked every guest this question. I've been asking that question, excuse me, since 2005 in Vancouver on a speech, I've asked it across North and South America. There are no commonalities whatsoever over the grade, the level, the subject.
[00:38:24] John U Bacon: Now we've got a Husker High school counselor, race, gender, ethnicity, et cetera, religion, none of that except for two things. One, they believed in me so much they would not accept less. Not once. Zero for 400 is anybody's favorite teacher. The easy one. It never happens. Mm-hmm. Uh, which is interesting, but I love how much he believed in you, so you start believing in yourself.
[00:38:42] John U Bacon: I got a great line from Pete, the cat, my son reading Pete the cat, uh, cartoon books that he loves. Uh, before you can be brave, you have to be scared. In other words, being, being scared does not mean you're not brave. It just means you gotta keep going. Yeah, great line. You've done that repeatedly. I'm now getting philosophy from Pete the cat.
[00:39:01] John U Bacon: But hey, that's how my life is going these days. My guest has been the wonderful Barb McQuaid. You see her almost nightly. Nightly these days on tv. She's a professor at the University of Michigan Law School, former federal prosecutor all around. Good person and a damn good writer. And check out her book in February of 2024, attack from Within.
[00:39:20] John U Bacon: Barb, I can't thank you
[00:39:21] Barbara McQuade: enough. Oh, thanks John. It's been wonderful chatting with you.
[00:39:24] John U Bacon: You've been listening to Let Them Lead a podcast about the risks and rewards of leading today. I'm John U Bacon, the host. Please tell your friends about it, subscribe, and of course leave a review and we'll see you next time.
[00:39:34] John U Bacon: Barb, thanks again. Thank you, John.
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